Posted by pancho from pool0075.cvx24-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net (209.179.210.75) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 at 2:27PM :
In Reply to: Re: You are being arrogant &... posted by pancho from pool0075.cvx24-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net (209.179.210.75) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 at 2:20PM :
: : ... completely ignorant again.
: +++Of course I'm arrogant.. and ignorant too....of what a Finn has to brag about.
: : : There is evil all over the world...and there is more goodness than the church can muster, among ordinary people.
: : xxx Here we go... using that popular word "evil".
: +++It's their word...I'm simply returning the favor. There isn't any Good and there isn't any Evil. There is only us...the term Human encompasses both of those.
: Pretty soon you'll be labeling Catholic priests as "terrorists", too. Of course there exists a lot of "good" in the world outside of any church, temple, shrine, or mosque. However, there also exists a lot of "bad" in the world outside of those institutions, as well.
: +++The rest of us have not a god to blame...or beg favors from. We stand here alone and naked with no mitigating circumstances...we never say, "the devil made me do it"...or, "thank god", for anything. We give no glory to god or blame him or his straight man, Beelzebub.
: Did I say that there was *less* "good" in the secular world (if one truly exists) than in the religious world? I was merely pointing out that the Catholic Church pedophilia scandals could be viewed as an indicator of societal problems that exist in every part of this world where there is a patriarchal tradition.
: +++And nowhere is that tradition more all-pervasive, and persistant AND endorsed by the biggest pedophiliac and child murderer of all, your friggin Lawd, than in the Catholic Church...and much more so than in the ones who "protested" this arrogance of the church. You call ME arrogant...why? because I don't buy their idiocies???
: +++At the same time you lament the pervasiveness and durability of one kind of idiocy, Creationism...you support their other pet notions about themselves...that they do "good". They do not. It is window dressing, for display, to increase donations, keep their power base and get us all looking the other way as they buy up real estate, run resorts, invest in the market and the rest of it, in the name of god...I AM ARROGANT???
: What about child brides? Is that tradition "good" even though many of these girls are forced to have sex before they've even begun to menstruate? What about all those other little boys & girls who are molested by people outside of the Catholic Church, many by their own relatives or relatives' friends?
: +++No one spends as much time disarming criticism, deflecting suspicion, buying off victims with pious bribes...no one has the machinery in place to MAKE children as vulnerable and later as guilt ridden, as does the Catholic Church. This is hardly Uncle Fester grabbing little Joey in the crotch...this is removing children from religion class, in a church, the house of god...taking them into a confessional and bending them over...later telling them god wanted it that way as a test or whatever. No one...NO ONE has that kind of power...those kinds of resources and as free and easy an access to that many rosy cheeked bottoms....AND immunity from prosecution because people were afraid to take on the "House of God"...a far cry from the shack of a child molester of humbler origins. Besides which...no one else has a network of Bishops, most of whom are the same fuckers, as well as a network of "safe houses" they can be shifted around to...havens just coincidentally attached to OTHER captive audiences of little bottoms. Who else has every angle so well covered besides the Catholic Church???
: : : Can you beat this...the oldest corporation in the world that robbed widows and orphans of millions to return a measely hand out...that tortured and burned people and raped children and young people, not to mention screwing up the minds and souls of millions upon millions, that ravaged the Native population of the know world...these same cocksuckers come back now and want SYMPATHY? They want to declare BANKRUPTCY...like the friggin business entity they are...to avoid "burdensome fines" levied against them for all the incalculable harm they've been doing for centuries...and you ask for some goodwill because they ran after school basketball programs???
: : xxx The Catholic Church is NOT the oldest corrupt power in the world. When it was in power, its clergy merely took the positions of power a corrupt aristocracy once occupied.
: +++No way...you're coming apart at the seams. The Catholic Church is the oldest, continuous, international corporation in the world...and all of it built on a complete fabrication. No WONDER those of you who "believe" can go on your merry ways killing left and right without a qualm. Once you addle your own brains enough to believe this nonsense, what WONT you believe?
: +++The Catholic Church created it's OWN Princes of the Church...so much so that there was a rebellion, finally, at the absurdity of the whole thing. A rebellion, like Martin Luther's that would have gotten nowhere BUT for the support of the SECULAR princes...who just barely kept the Catholic Princes' hands from Luther's throat. These Churchly aristrocrats just about snuffed out the human mind...toppling kings in the process till they had their travelling magic show exposed for a fraud when Henry and others simply said, "up yours...do your worst"...and the most terrible condemnation of the Pope didn't do squat...and just for good measure they rubbed the popes impotence in his face...holy my arse.
: +++But then they too fell in line because Protestant princes want the quick and easy way to rule too...better a god in every head than a cop on every corner...especially if the King has to pay the cops...but the Pope pays the priests.
: Then those positions were stripped from them & reclaimed by another corrupt aristocracy. Now the Catholic Church has influence but not direct power. & today, there are Catholic relief groups working all over the world, e.g. providing food for Iraqis who are starving SINCE the Gulf War & in Zambia where there is a huge famine.
: +++You've got some nerve. The Mafia takes care of its own too...and in Columbia, Pablo Escobar was a hero to the poor people who grew his poppies because he took care of their medical needs. Are you nuts?
: So what if they make money in order to spend even some of it on relief work?
: +++So "everything"...when they engage in politics and use their god-power to affect the secular world we live in and get abortions in...don't forget that in your apology for the unforgiveable.
: How many other churches or other religious institutions can say the same, that they have provided the same amount of relief all over the world? Name one.
: +++So what. The Catholic Church is the Gambino Clan among the other Families. So what. perhaps they give more because they need to give more...perhaps since they've been accumulating wealth for far longer they have a greater practical need to spend at least some of it. You hear in the Casinos each year about how many millions some gamblers have won. Well? Would anyone go if NO ONE ever won? Could the Catholic Church give a single other reason for its existence if NOT for the fact that gives a trifling amount...but one that knocks you for a loop, to justify its existence?
: : xxx Begging for sympathy isn't a Catholic tradition, either.
: : xxx Besides, you are forgetting that a lot of imperialism was not necessarily religiously based - most of it was based on nationalist (& racist) tendencies.
: +++Wherever the Conquistador went...or the Roman army...there too went the Church...because "saving" souls, even by killing bodies...was a terrific sales-pitch back home, it got everyone's sympathy and provided a fig leaf for what they otherwise would have had to call by its rightful name...theft and murder.
: +++The same Roman Empire that everyone admits freely was stealing and killing before it turned Christian, now became the "defender of the Lord"...and went right on killing and stealing and enslaving and raping. So they provided an orphanage for the children whose parents the Christian Romans killed and robbed...this impresses you? There wasn't a goddamned benefit the Church brought that people needed...not a one. The church solved no one's problems...it just interjected itself as the source of a new set of problems, and collected the fee. That's all. There were good people in the Church, who held their noses to do good work because there was hardly any alternative in those days. But whatever slight good they did...the Church itself has brought us to the doorstep of one of the most brutal and inhumane eras ever...by way of the Holocaust...which was just a beginning. Now everyone is a potential genocide victim as they all square off for the final kill.
: : xxx You feel safe to bad-mouth the Catholic Church because it's trendy to do so. I'm challenging you to think outside of the media-box. There are a lot of "bad" entities in this world.
: +++I have ALWAYS despised the Church...every one of them they tried to get me into. As a child I thought the whole thing was beneath contempt. It's about time the media caught up.
: +++You're getting to sound like Andreas...whatever you don't want to register, you don't hear. I agree with you...there are lots of bad things in this world. But none so bad as those who set people up to believe they have a special dispensation, an inside track...the ear of...De Lawd, with which to do their dirt. And no one uses that better...and NO ONE has had more dirt over a greater period of time...as a single entity, than the Catholic Church. They call on god to sanctify their dirt...of course they don't do it in public, where they strike the humble, reverential tone...but they don't fuck children in public...they reserve their most damning lies on behalf of God for private...in the back room of the rectory and in the bank boardrooms where the hard wheeling and dealing for mortage rates and "deals" are struck for all the property and wealth they own.
: +++See? See what having to twist and whomp on your own intelligence does to people who fall into line to defend these suckers? You sound stupid like you've never managed to sound before...and THAT is exactly why they have Sunday Schools and religious schools...to find those minds just forming...and spew this garbage into them.
: +++If I despise the Church it's because it is despicable. I wasn't about to wait until I got reamed by Father Church before seeing it coming...the prick!
-- pancho
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