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Posted by parhad (Guest) - Friday, April 30 2004, 8:01:12 (CEST)
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Dealing with Falluja has gone from strictly a military matter for
> commanders in Iraq to a broader political debate involving President
> Bush and his top national security aides in Washington, who have
> voiced concerns that images of fierce fighting in Falluja will stir
> uprisings throughout Iraq and outrage throughout the Arab world.

..this is where you have to remember your Orwell...this is EXACTLY what they want..what they say they DON`T want. They want outrage throughout the Arab world...hell what HAVEN`T they done to ensure just such outrage? Killing a half million chikldren didn`t do it..not enough of it..so they increased the pressure...how are you going to get Terrorists for the indefinite bright corporate future if you DON`T stir up OUTRAGE???
>
> Some Marine commanders grumble that the stop-and-start negotiations
> are giving insurgents more time to restock and refortify their
> defenses, putting marines' lives at risk and postponing what they say
> is an inevitable American attack.
>
> The decision to delay any immediate offensive into Falluja is still
> very tenuous, Pentagon officials said Tuesday. Military commanders are
> unwilling to accept the status quo, while intelligence suggests that
> backing off would encourage a new generation of opposition, and
> postpone big problems until closer to the transfer to Iraqi
> sovereignty on June 30. There is little sign that resistance is
> weakening.

...more Orwellian bull...backing off, really backing off, would have PREVENTED American deaths...no one has any intention of "backing off". That`s the game they play when they poke your one eye out...knock all your teeth out..rip both ears off your head..andf then agonize that you might misconstrue their intentions if they "backed off" and left you one eye with which to visit your children`s graves.
>
> If there is any glimmer of hope for a negotiated settlement, American
> and Iraqi civilian authorities are eager to grasp it.

...No they are not. Americans were never eager to grasp at negotiations..if you`ll rember they refused to talk..to wait an extra week, to listen anyone...and the "Iraqi Civillians" are the counterpart to the stooges in South Vietnam they found who all incidentally also got rich on our taxes and wound up leaving for Hollywood just as fast as they could get out of their "dear" homeland too.

But the idea of
> sending joint American-Iraqi patrols deep into the city has been put
> off several times, since American commanders said Tuesday that the
> Iraqi forces who were being asked to take part were not yet capable of
> doing so without putting themselves and the marines at risk.

...you must be joking...What Iraqi in his right mind is now going to go in with the Marines??? They mean they can`t find any Iraqis who would do such a thing...so they can wind up getting all the heat..like our Levies jackasses did. Ask Hanna...he`ll go.
>
> Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Tuesday that "if at some
> point the military decides that the string has run out, then they will
> tell us that and take appropriate action."

...it`s all show..the decision to murder more of them has already been made..it was part of the plan..if Fallujeh hadn`t happned, they`d have made a Fallujeh somewhere else. The point it is to radicalize the population..make Muslims look like THEY are the bloody ones..so no more city councils will allow them to pray in America..you can see how gentle Jesus has made these Christians.
>
> "Now, does that mean that something can't be worked out?" he
> continued. "No, I wouldn't say that, or else we wouldn't be where we
> are."

...more bull. The time to work things out, if that was their intention, was before the war,...when they couldn`t find a single WMD but went in anyway because that`s what they were going to do anyway. To want to negotiate now is silly and they have no intention of doing it..it`s the same game they taught the Israelis...make a great show of wanting to talk while you also make it impossible for anyone to trust you or want to talk to you...and then blame it on them.
>
> The standoff in Falluja has been building for more than a year.
> American units have come and gone so often in this hotbed of Sunni
> resistance that they have had little time to understand their
> surroundings. Falluja was initially occupied last year by the 82nd
> Airborne Division, which was soon replaced by the Third Armored
> Cavalry, which in turn was replaced by a brigade of the Army's Third
> Infantry Division. Last summer, the Third Infantry handed the town
> back to the Third Armored Cavalry, which was soon replaced by the 82nd
> Airborne Division. Last month, the marines replaced the 82nd Airborne.

...and each unit came in and completely changed the way things were done driving the people to distraction by making the point that their lives meant nothing at all..that not one unit of 2000 troops would come through and expect the people to behave themselves..but 20,000 mtroops in alternating groups ..like a gang rape..would come through and push them around and keep doing it till they provoked just what they needed,,,it took them a year but they succeeded in their mission...they got civillians to turn themselves into "insuregents"...like they turned mothers into suicide bombers.
>
> By December, Maj. Gen. Charles H. Swannack Jr., the division's
> commander, spoke of being on a "glide path" to victory over the
> insurgents, at least in Al Anbar Province, in western Iraq. By
> February, the 82nd Airborne had largely pulled back from patrolling
> Falluja, putting more responsibility in the hands of the Iraqi Civil
> Defense Corps and the Iraqi police. But in early April, those Iraqi
> forces largely folded under fire.

...to no one`s surprise we might add..I don`t know who these fools are but were they ever sold a bill of goods..anyone siding with the Americans might as well have his bags packed and his shroud picked out...it MUST be Christians..of COURSE!
>
> Although reluctant to criticize the Army publicly, the marines
> replacing the 82nd Airborne said the Army's practice of staying out of
> town allowed the security situation in Falluja to fester. For weeks,
> General Conway and other Marine commanders had boasted they would
> shift tactics to work more closely with local people, to gain their
> trust, and, in the process, glean intelligence about insurgents'
> locations. This strategy drew on the Marine Corps' "Small Wars"
> manual, which derives from their 20th-century interventions in Central
> America.

...which also didn`t work...all it means is they kill civillians..that`s all.
>
> Maj. Gen. James N. Mattis, the First Marine Division commander,
> reminded his forces in a message as they arrived last month that he
> had added the warning, "Do no harm," to the unit's motto of "No better
> friend, no worse enemy." Before showing their "velvet glove" approach,
> however, the Marines also wanted insurgents to feel their mailed fist.
> "We will move precisely against the enemy elements and crush them
> without harming the innocent," General Mattis said in his message.

...do no harm would have kept the Americans out of Iraq..they did there to do great harm..added to the great harm they`d been doing for 13 years already...they are there to make a hot spot hotter...there was absolutely no need for this war excèpt to make a few rich people richer.
>
> Almost immediately after taking over from the Army, marines came under
> fire. A convoy was ambushed. Patrols pushing into town for the first
> time in weeks were met with mortar and rocket fire, and had to pull
> back. Then the four contractors from Blackwater U.S.A. were killed.
>
> "Certainly the reason we went into Falluja included the killing of the
> four contractors, but Falluja was not a garden paradise before then,"
> Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the chief spokesman for the American military
> command, said Tuesday. "Falluja has been a problem, a significant
> problem for the coalition and for Iraqi security forces for many, many
> months."

...think of the "problem" you people have been for Iraq.
>
> In the Pentagon's view, Falluja was boiling. There had been 27 attacks
> on occupation forces, Iraqi security sites or American administration
> targets in the three weeks before the Blackwater killings. Because of
> that, planning was already under way to go in and clean out insurgents
> in Falluja.
>
> The planning was accelerated after the Blackwater attack because those
> killings were viewed by the Pentagon and local commanders as
> premeditated, and the population cheered indicating the dangerous
> political effect of allowing a Falluja-based insurgency to remain.
>
> Some Army officers said marines had stirred up a hornet's nest without
> responding swiftly and forcefully enough. "The threat in the Al Anbar
> Province was flat out afraid of the 82nd paratroopers," said one Army
> officer who served near Falluja.
>
> But Maj. Kevin Collins, a Marine operations officer in Falluja, put
> the Marines' attitude this way, "If you chose to pick a fight, we'll
> finish it."

...you didn`t in Korea or Vietnam...you turned around and left and declared a victory anyway..and 20 years later Repubs believe they won the war in Vietnam.
>
> Thom Shanker contributed reporting from Washington for this article,
> John F. Burns from Baghdad and John Kifner from Falluja.
>
> Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company | Home | Privacy Policy |
> Search | Corrections | Help | Back to Top
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:55:51 -0400
>From: Doug Henwood <dhenwood@panix.com>
>Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] A Very American Occupation (new Gallup poll)
>To: lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org
>Message-ID: <p05200f00bcb6e40351e1@[192.168.0.196]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
>
>John Lacny wrote:
>
>>Munson:
>>
>>> I think you meant this message for Lacny
>>
>>Etymologically, I've been told that "lacny" means "hungry" or
>>"cheap" in a number of Slavic languages. (Though, while it's a
>>well-known if not common name among Poles, it apparently means
>>nothing in Polish -- it's just a name. Help me out here, Wojtek).
>>Hence I like Doug's free advertising.
>>
>>In all seriousness, though, if people want me to cut-and-paste my
>>blog posts, that's fine. I don't see why just forwarding a URL
>>should be a problem, though.
>
>I don't mind when advertisers participate. When advertising becomes a
>substitute for participation, I feel used.
>
>Doug
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 00:59:32 +0800
>From: "Grant Lee" <grantlee@iinet.net.au>
>Subject: OFFLIST Re: [lbo-talk] NYT: Marines' alternative approach was
> doomed from thestart
>To: <lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org>
>Message-ID: <033a01c42e0b$58d839a0$9ec43bcb@01955102>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Hi Michael,
>
>My Dad, who likes reading WW2 histories, keeps saying "I can't believe they
>would use the US Marines in a situation like that" (i.e. Fallujah). He's
>right of course; as I've said before, the USMC is the virtual antithesis of
>light infantry (although the Marine Scouts are an exception). But, as we
>know, the relatively few light infantry forces that the US has are mostly
>tied up elsewhere.
>
>regards,
>
>Grant.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Michael Pollak" <mpollak@panix.com>
>To: <lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org>
>Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 12:37 AM
>Subject: [lbo-talk] NYT: Marines' alternative approach was doomed from
>thestart
>
>
>>
>> [The NYT article attached below fills in a lot of little holes, and one
>> big one: it explains in one sentence why the Marines, who supposedly
>> trained for months to introduce a gentler kinder counterinsurgency
>> strategy, were so ready within a week to scrap it all and go back to the
>> policy of the iron fist (excuse me "Iron Grip"). Mattis, the division's
>> commander says it was always his plan to precede the soft approach with a
>> short hard attack that showed Fallujah who was boss:
>>
>> Before showing their "velvet glove" approach, however, the Marines also
>> wanted insurgents to feel their mailed fist. "We will move precisely
>> against the enemy elements and crush them without harming the
>> innocent," General Mattis said in his [email] message [to the
>> reporter].
>>
>> [Hence the whole soft approach hinged on this part going perfectly. It
>> seems never to have occurred to them that it might not, which is quite a
>> grave flaw in the plan. What seems to have happened is that the Marines
>> made their initial mailed fist patrols, got strong counter-reactions, got
>> pissed, and then the next week, the four contractors got killed -- and on
>> many accounts, the death of the four contractors was intended and received
>> as a direct response to the killing of Fallujans by Marines the week
>> before. So the marines then reverted to SOP, all mailed fist all the
>> time. But given the big flaw in their initial two-step plan -- Step one:
>> hit them in the face and presume they'll just sit there and take it *and
>> then their neighbors will look forward to working with you* -- it looks
>> like their unplanned Plan B, all fist all the time, was always by far the
>> most likely outcome.]
>>
>> [If we now get back to the original softer approach -- if the Marines are
>> prevented from going in, when they now giving every sign of champing at
>> the bit -- it looks like it won't be the Marines that brought it about,
>> but rather that the political authorities imposed it on them. The Marines
>> presumably still have the resources, the training (and maybe the facial
>> hair), although presumably the gung-ho attitude and optimism about it
>> wroking are seriously frayed. It seems clear that idea that it should be
>> preceded with random hard strikes for the pure purposes of demonstrating
>> toughness was a bad one that set it seriously backwards.]
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/28/international/middleeast/28SIEG.html
>>
>> The New York Times
>> April 28, 2004
>>
>> NEWS ANALYSIS
>>
>> The Siege of Falluja, a Test in a Tinderbox
>>
>> By ERIC SCHMITT
>>
>> W ASHINGTON, April 27 The siege in Falluja is a case study in mistaken
>> assumptions, dashed hopes, rivalry between the Army and the Marine
>> Corps, and a tragedy that became a trigger, Pentagon officials, senior
>> officers and independent military analysts said Tuesday.
>>
>> The chain of decisions leading to the standoff that has made the city
>> of nearly 300,000 people in the Sunni heartland a symbol of the
>> insurgency also illustrates conflicting military strategies and
>> shifting political aims. The fate of Falluja has become a possible
>> harbinger for all of Iraq.
>>
>> Some critics say the immediate showdown is a result of the Marines'
>> overreaction to the killing and mutilation of four American private
>> security contractors on March 31. "They've gone to the sledgehammer
>> approach," said Michael O'Hanlon, a senior fellow at the Brookings
>> Institution. Even before the contractors' deaths, however, the marines
>> ran into sporadic but stiff resistance last month as they took over
>> responsibility for the area from departing Army soldiers. Marine
>> commanders defended their response, which was to throw a cordon of
>> troops, tanks and artillery around the city, try to avoid civilian
>> casualties and prepare for an urban battle to root out some 2,000
>> insurgents.
>>
>> In recent days, commanders have said they are taking great pains to
>> avoid an all-out attack. "Every attempt will be made to solve the
>> problem peacefully before resorting to a military offensive against
>> terrorists inside the city," Lt. Gen. James T. Conway, the top Marine
>> general in Iraq, said in an e-mail message.
>>
>> Dealing with Falluja has gone from strictly a military matter for
>> commanders in Iraq to a broader political debate involving President
>> Bush and his top national security aides in Washington, who have
>> voiced concerns that images of fierce fighting in Falluja will stir
>> uprisings throughout Iraq and outrage throughout the Arab world.
>>
>> Some Marine commanders grumble that the stop-and-start negotiations
>> are giving insurgents more time to restock and refortify their
>> defenses, putting marines' lives at risk and postponing what they say
>> is an inevitable American attack.
>>
>> The decision to delay any immediate offensive into Falluja is still
>> very tenuous, Pentagon officials said Tuesday. Military commanders are
>> unwilling to accept the status quo, while intelligence suggests that
>> backing off would encourage a new generation of opposition, and
>> postpone big problems until closer to the transfer to Iraqi
>> sovereignty on June 30. There is little sign that resistance is
>> weakening.
>>
>> If there is any glimmer of hope for a negotiated settlement, American
>> and Iraqi civilian authorities are eager to grasp it. But the idea of
>> sending joint American-Iraqi patrols deep into the city has been put
>> off several times, since American commanders said Tuesday that the
>> Iraqi forces who were being asked to take part were not yet capable of
>> doing so without putting themselves and the marines at risk.
>>
>> Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Tuesday that "if at some
>> point the military decides that the string has run out, then they will
>> tell us that and take appropriate action."
>>
>> "Now, does that mean that something can't be worked out?" he
>> continued. "No, I wouldn't say that, or else we wouldn't be where we
>> are."
>>
>> The standoff in Falluja has been building for more than a year.
>> American units have come and gone so often in this hotbed of Sunni
>> resistance that they have had little time to understand their
>> surroundings. Falluja was initially occupied last year by the 82nd
>> Airborne Division, which was soon replaced by the Third Armored
>> Cavalry, which in turn was replaced by a brigade of the Army's Third
>> Infantry Division. Last summer, the Third Infantry handed the town
>> back to the Third Armored Cavalry, which was soon replaced by the 82nd
>> Airborne Division. Last month, the marines replaced the 82nd Airborne.
>>
>> By December, Maj. Gen. Charles H. Swannack Jr., the division's
>> commander, spoke of being on a "glide path" to victory over the
>> insurgents, at least in Al Anbar Province, in western Iraq. By
>> February, the 82nd Airborne had largely pulled back from patrolling
>> Falluja, putting more responsibility in the hands of the Iraqi Civil
>> Defense Corps and the Iraqi police. But in early April, those Iraqi
>> forces largely folded under fire.
>>
>> Although reluctant to criticize the Army publicly, the marines
>> replacing the 82nd Airborne said the Army's practice of staying out of
>> town allowed the security situation in Falluja to fester. For weeks,
>> General Conway and other Marine commanders had boasted they would
>> shift tactics to work more closely with local people, to gain their
>> trust, and, in the process, glean intelligence about insurgents'
>> locations. This strategy drew on the Marine Corps' "Small Wars"
>> manual, which derives from their 20th-century interventions in Central
>> America.
>>
>> Maj. Gen. James N. Mattis, the First Marine Division commander,
>> reminded his forces in a message as they arrived last month that he
>> had added the warning, "Do no harm," to the unit's motto of "No better
>> friend, no worse enemy." Before showing their "velvet glove" approach,
>> however, the Marines also wanted insurgents to feel their mailed fist.
>> "We will move precisely against the enemy elements and crush them
>> without harming the innocent," General Mattis said in his message.
>>
>> Almost immediately after taking over from the Army, marines came under
>> fire. A convoy was ambushed. Patrols pushing into town for the first
>> time in weeks were met with mortar and rocket fire, and had to pull
>> back. Then the four contractors from Blackwater U.S.A. were killed.
>>
>> "Certainly the reason we went into Falluja included the killing of the
>> four contractors, but Falluja was not a garden paradise before then,"
>> Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the chief spokesman for the American military
>> command, said Tuesday. "Falluja has been a problem, a significant
>> problem for the coalition and for Iraqi security forces for many, many
>> months."
>>
>> In the Pentagon's view, Falluja was boiling. There had been 27 attacks
>> on occupation forces, Iraqi security sites or American administration
>> targets in the three weeks before the Blackwater killings. Because of
>> that, planning was already under way to go in and clean out insurgents
>> in Falluja.
>>
>> The planning was accelerated after the Blackwater attack because those
>> killings were viewed by the Pentagon and local commanders as
>> premeditated, and the population cheered indicating the dangerous
>> political effect of allowing a Falluja-based insurgency to remain.
>>
>> Some Army officers said marines had stirred up a hornet's nest without
>> responding swiftly and forcefully enough. "The threat in the Al Anbar
>> Province was flat out afraid of the 82nd paratroopers," said one Army
>> officer who served near Falluja.
>>
>> But Maj. Kevin Collins, a Marine operations officer in Falluja, put
>> the Marines' attitude this way, "If you chose to pick a fight, we'll
>> finish it."
>>
>> Thom Shanker contributed reporting from Washington for this article,
>> John F. Burns from Baghdad and John Kifner from Falluja.
>>
>> Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company | Home | Privacy Policy |
>> Search | Corrections | Help | Back to Top
>> ___________________________________
>> http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 13:01:02 -0400
>From: Doug Henwood <dhenwood@panix.com>
>Subject: [lbo-talk] TV station owner orders affiliate not to run
> Nightline
>To: lbo-talk <lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org>
>Message-ID: <p05200f02bcb6e4ec888f@[192.168.0.196]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
>
><http://poynter.org/forum/?id=misc>
>
>Sinclair stations won't run "Nightline" tribute
>4/29/2004 10:59:30 AM
>
>NewsBlues.com is reporting [no free link] that Sinclair Broadcast
>Group has ordered its ABC-affiliated stations not to carry tomorrow's
>"Nightline," which will air the names and photos of soldiers who have
>been killed in combat in Iraq.
>
>Sinclair General Counsel Barry Faber tells the site: "We find it to
>be contrary to the public interest."
>
>The boycott will affect eight ABC-affiliated Sinclair stations.
>>>>>
>
>STATEMENT OF THE SINCLAIR BROADCAST GROUP
>
>The ABC Television network announced on Tuesday that the Friday,
>April 30th edition of "Nightline" will consist entirely of Ted Koppel
>reading aloud the names of U.S. servicemen and women killed in action
>in Iraq. Despite the denials by a spokeswoman for the show the action
>appears to be motivated by a political agenda designed to undermine
>the efforts of the United States in Iraq.
>
>While the Sinclair Broadcast Group honors the memory of the brave
>members of the military who have sacrificed their lives in the
>service of our country, we do not believe such political statements
>should be disguised as news content. As a result, we have decided to
>preempt the broadcast of "Nightline" this Friday on each of our
>stations which air ABC programming.
>
>We understand that our decision in this matter may be questioned by
>some. Before you judge our decision, however, we would ask that you
>first question Mr. Koppel as to why he chose to read the names of the
>523 troops killed in combat in Iraq, rather than the names of the
>thousands of private citizens killed in terrorists attacks since and
>including the events of September 11, 2001. In his answer, you will
>find the real motivation behind his action scheduled for this Friday.
>
>ABC NEWS STATEMENT IN RESPONSE TO SINCLAIR
>
>We respectfully disagree with Sinclair's decision to pre-empt
>"Nightline's" tribute to America's fallen soldiers which will air
>this Friday, April 30. The Nightline broadcast is an expression of
>respect which simply seeks to honor those who have laid down their
>lives for this country. ABC News is dedicated to thoughtful and
>balanced coverage and reports on the events shaping our world with
>neither fear nor favor -- as our audience expects, deserves, and
>rightly demands. Contrary to the statement issued by Sinclair, which
>takes issue with our level of coverage of the effects of terrorism on
>our citizens, ABC News and all of our broadcasts, including
>"Nightline," have reported hundreds of stories on 9-11. Indeed, on
>the first anniversary of 9-11, ABC News broadcast the names of the
>victims of that horrific attack.
>
>In sum, we are particularly proud of the journalism and award winning
>coverage ABC News has produced since September 11, 2001. ABC News
>will continue to report on all facets of the war in Iraq and the War
>on Terrorism in a manner consistent with the standards which ABC News
>has set for decades.

---------------------

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MailMan... Tony - Friday, April 30 2004, 6:19:12 (CEST)
- Re: MailMan... parhad - 04/30 08:01

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