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=> Re: to my sem*i*nary pal...

Re: to my sem*i*nary pal...
Posted by Andy Younan (Guest) jonah2164@yahoo.com - Wednesday, December 10 2003, 0:26:44 (EST)
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Farid,

Let's get through the silly stuff first:

>>>...drowning in his own semen...
>>
>>I know you're better than that, Farid.
>
>***Ahhh...you sure you know what you meant by that? Thatīs a non-nothin to begin with. Do you mean I should be ashamed of myself for refering to your semen?

Boy, SOMEbody's grumpy. I was just saying that you're usually more clever than that. Take it easy.

>>You're wrong. You were always very good to me.
>
>***Okay...letīs quit stroking the old fart...as a Christian nee Jew...you people never feel more loved than when youīre being chewed on.

And you can't even take an honest compliment!

>>Ok, that's a LITTLE better than the "drowning in semen" bit. But not by much.
>
>****Warch it...I was willing to leave semen out of this but errections come right before and am I wrong in thinking not a one of you in there can handle one without breaking ten holy laws.

I assume that was a question. Answer: yes, you're wrong.

>***Iīm losing the hope I had earlier. This is worthy of Andreas...itīs just dodge and cut and run with a tepid attempt to appear to be standing at the mark. Damn.

I was only accepting your invitation, ol pal. No dodges here - nothing to dodge, really.

>***First I ever heard that nonsense. I donīt psychoanalize...thatīs a name you give it so you can feel comfortable brushing it aside...

There you go again...telling me how I feel. You're doing a LOT of that nowadays:

>>Hmmm...let's cut through some of the crap before I get to that:
>
>***Andy, Andy, Andy...I almost wish now youīd just ignored me some more.

When have I ever ignored you?

>>The other history thingy is boring, too...you know...would Christianity have survived if Constantine blah blah blah and the Inquisition blah blah blah and the Crusades blah blah blah blah. I don't care. Also, the whole "objective history" myth is SO 19th Century. You know...hermeneutics and all that.
>
>***Youīre the kid in the coffe shop on campus all over again...a wise parrot.

And the name calling...how I missed it! Ok, that was sarcastic. I didn't miss it. The name calling, I mean.

I'll answer your point, though. If you don't like me saying things like "hermeneutics," that's fine. I'll just translate it into regular-talk: you have as many unconscious prejudices as anybody else.

>>So, your bit is this (correct me if I'm wrong): Christianity is, at core, about the murder of an innocent man and the benefits that are given by accepting his death. Right? And this explains the only things that have ever happened in Christian history: the crusades, the inquisition and blah blah blah.
>
>***Do you really think the blah blahs settle the points raised?

What points? Do you honestly expect me to answer for everything that every Christian in history has ever done? All the "blah" means is "crap that I don't have to deal with to make my point."

>>1) When I use the Bible or some other churchy thing to explain something, I'm doing so because they are authoritative voices in Christianity, not because I think they PROVE anything. They tell us what the whole thing MEANS; they don't work as evidence. OK?
>
>***Not "evidence"...but they tell what the whole thing MEANS?

Yup.

>***I got your beliefs from you but as you never examine them because they just ARE...they sound odd to you when delved into and played back sans the faith bullshit...

No, it's just odd to have someone tell me what my faith means to me. You're not an evangelical, are you? "Farid Graham." Has a nice ring to it.

And what does it mean to play back beliefs "sans the faith?" What are beliefs without faith?

>>A) Christians believe that Christ is God. Not "a god" or "a godly man," but God. The second Person of the Trinity - all three of whom are equally God; "The Word was in the beginning with God and the Word was God" and all that. This has been the belief of Christians since the beginning - the very first heresy, in fact (first Century) denied that Christ was a man.
>
>***Well that about settles it...you just told me youīre crazy but have every right to be crazy if you want to be...and besides youīve all been crazy for some time. I donīt care what sort of private insanity you suffer from...what you wonīt acknowledge is that while you may be innocent crazy...the majority of the people who believe as you do go further and kill people over it...

THE MAJORITY! I don't know about you, but I've never met a single Christian - or anyone else, for that matter - who's killed another human being. Maybe I just have different friends than you do.

Seriously, Farid. The way you carry on with your "the majority of people who believe as you do go further and kill people over it..." The majority of people who believe as I do - by FAR - are sweet, decent, humble people who find their faith inspiring. Oh, I forgot, "they ALL would've been like that anyway." Could be, I guess.

> and while itīs true they might kill them anayway...this god of yours allows them to wash their consciences again and again...while you pray.

Christianity ain't the only religion that can be abused like that. What was the whole Babylonian New Year celebration about if not the victory of Marduk, god of Babylon, over the other gods of the other lands? Oh, never mind.

>>B) I've told you before that I don't believe that goodness or justice were invented by Christianity - some people seem to, but not Catholics (remember all the Virtuous Pagans in Dante?)
>
>***Are there any virtuous pagan Assyrians you could have refernced or is self-loathing your thing as well?

You don't get it. I'm referring to Dante to make the point that good old Catholic theology doesn't claim that Jesus invented telling the truth. Duh.

Ok, enough with the beans. Here's the real stuff. I like what you've done with it:

First, you say:

>***You think self-love means taking the biggest slice for yourself...so you teach denying yourself the biggest and then ANY slice...and guess where all those slices go to? You people want to skip knowing yourselves...caring for yourselves...loving yourselves...but want to jump off a bridge yelling THIS WAY IS LOOOOOOOOVVVVEEEEEEE."

Then:

>***What can a person say to that? You might as well tell me youīre Napoleon. This is humility? God died for YOU?

There you go again, telling me what the faith means to me: "self-sacrifice means not loving yourself;" "believing God died for you is arrogance."

What can I say to THAT? What can I say except, "no, you're wrong." I DON'T think that self-sacrifice means I hate myself or avoid knowing myself. The whole POINT of self-sacrifice is to do it out of love for others, and self-love is assumed in loving others. I DON'T feel inflated or arrogant that Christ died for me (and you and everyone else). I feel humbled and awestruck - even dumbstruck, if it makes you happy.

Way to totally miss the point. But then you're good at it.

>***Jesus I wish on of them Greeks was here to see this. You MUST be joking...right? This is a gag...a trick to trip me up...right? Your urination and a postponed trip to Rome are anywhere near to the same thing in where your mind would have been had you not pissed it away for your urination?

Whew. I'm exhausted just reading that last sentence. Oh, and you're missing the point again: OBVIOUSLY this situation isn't near the same thing as Christ's death. It's just an example to show that someone can accept a gift without becoming a bloodthirsty monster. Even more than that, actually: it shows how accepting even a tiny little gift that is given in love is a humbling and awesome thing. All the more so - infinitely - with Christ's gift.

But you refuse to see that. You're standing on the altar with your nose against the Crucifix railing about how horrible a thing it is. You refuse to stand back and see it as it is - in the center of the church and the whole world. You see a dead guy. I see the God who created the world though he didn't have to, and who keeps it all going and beautiful though he doesn't have to, and who speaks to each conscience though he doesn't have to, and at the end, in the center of it all, who died for his creation out of pure and absolute and unrequired unasked-for love. But all you see is a dead guy. Suit yourself

Sorry about that. I know already that you're not good with examples.

>***Iīm pleased you can spell it. You have more bugaboos than anyone your age I ever met...

Ah, the harsh reality of it all! I'm here arguing against hatreds you've harbored since well before I was born!

>***You donīt kid me for minute...this kant you just delivered is supposed to show you arenīt afraid to come out of the closet, as a Christian and "proud of it too"!

I'm here because you invited me and because I like arguing with you. I'm not sure what you expect from me - the faith hasn't changed since we last talked, nor has your horrendous misinterpretation of it. Whatever you expect from me, what you'll get is correction after correction of what you're getting wrong. You can think what you want about the meaning of the Crucifixion; if you want to know what it means to a Christian, that's what I'm here for.

Your TV pal,

Andy



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