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=> Re: Answer to Parhad

Re: Answer to Parhad
Posted by parhad (Guest) - Thursday, September 9 2004, 21:30:53 (CEST)
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Paul Younan wrote:
>>...the fetus dies as it has for thousands of years in millions and millions and millions of abortions
>
>There's a difference. If you died naturally, no one would be prosecuted, but if someone murdered you, he would be prosecuted.

...you`re either really this stupid or deliberately refuse to get it. Whether it`s murder or what ever else you want to call it..you can`t STOP it and never have been able to...THAT is the point...THAT IS THE POINT. Get it? We AGREE with you that`s it`s MURDER..okay? We AGREE with you that`s it`s TERRIBLE, Okay? We AGREE with you that it`s HORRIBLE...OKAY, though we don`t keep poctures around of horrors...we AGREE: Get it?

What we and all those in favor of abortions have said is that since the feturs dies ANYWAY..we don`t wish the mother to die ALSO!

In your anology it would be as if we still at a time where the mother could be killed for their childs crimes...mureder forinstance..we KNOW murder is illegal..we don`t APPROVE of murder..we don`t WANT people murdered..BUT, since murder has been with us from the beginning we no longer see a valid reason to kill the mother AS WELL! Kay?

That's the protection of the law. You have it, and enjoy it. ALL citizens are entitled to it. If you can set aside any class of citizens as nonpersons, any other class is vulnerable in the same way. It was "fetuses" in 1973, it's "Muslims" today.

..no it`s not..this is your analogy because you say a fetus is LIFE..the LAW disagrees with you...and the Law is what we live by..if the Law should deicde it`s legal to put people in Guantanamo on no chartges, then that`s the LAW..we`ll have to live with it until we can change it.

A fetus is not considreed a full life BY THE LAW. You can repeat the horros of abortions all you want to..draw all the cockeyed analogies you want to..it makes no difference.the People have spoken.and they have even MORE oc a conscience than you do..you have NO way of making abortions sdisappear..your ONLY solution is to kill the mother as well.

That's the fallacy of chattel slavery, and of genocide. And, it's the fallacy of legalized abortion. This is at the bottom of it, a civil rights issue.

..no it`s not. A Black fetus a Gay fetus a Jewish fetus as has much RIGHT to be aborted as a white one..THAT`S the equality granted a fetus....a fetus is NOT legal Life...that is IT! You can bring your morals into court all you want to..they rule NOTHING in this regard and less and less everywhere else you`ve butted your sheepshit god into.
>
>>...your morality demands the woman pay the same price..it isn`t MURDER you resent..it`s FREE women!
>
>The same price as what? The price the fetus pays? My mom carried me all the way to birth, and it didn't kill her, and she did it freely.

..we aren`t talking about your Mom and you know it..we`re talking about your daughters who, if they should opt for aborions will at least not DIE as well....we`re talking about the dead fetuses none of your god has ever beeen able to stop..we`re talking about not killing the mother who must get an abortion in unclean conditions because YOUR god wants it that way.

No one resents free women. Women have all sorts of freedoms to which no one objects. The objections only arise when their idea of freedom totally tramples the freedoms of another.


..it isn`t THEIR idea alone..it happens to be the idea and will of the MAJORITY..this is a democracy and as you can see you`ve had all the opportunity to argue your case..as you get to do in a democracy AND this forum..what you can`t do is IMPOSE your own Sharia Law on us any longer..get used to it.

..and if you impose YOUR definitioon of what a woman can do in regards to abortions..you will stop NO abortions..you will merely IMPOSE danerous abortions on them and MORE people will die...that is your morality.

It's a lead pipe cinch that the babies you want to kill will never get a chance to enjoy any freedom, and over half of those are female, as in WOMEN.

..I don`t WANT to kill any babies..I want a woman to be able to abort if she wants to...I don`t want HER to have to die as well...which you keep ignoring.


The notion that freedom allows each person total control of his or her life is called radical autonomy. If I want total control, and you want total control, what happens when our paths cross? Something has to give. Either there is an established rule of law which prioritizes freedoms the way a stop-sign prioritizes right-of-way, or might makes right.

..there is an established rule of Law..it`s called Rode v. Wade...we have CHANGED our laws to save women`s lives and maintain their privacy and dignity..we do not CARE about the fetus LEGALLY...the fetus has been killed for 4000 years in abortions...outlawinf legal abortions will not STOP them..legalizing them will NOT make them "easy"...what the new rule of law does is recognize the reality that no one, including your god has been able to change so that at LEAST the women don`t die...is that difficult for you?


In the latter case, one of us will enjoy radical autonomy and the other must yield to the power of the winner. In this way, radical autonomy is nothing more than anarchy and anarchy is the tyranny of the strong over the weak.


..your foolishness is your own...thankfully our government now provides for your daughters what you wont. These terms mean nothing when in your mouth..you people lie all over the place and twist words out of all meaning..it is NOT anarchy when the Law of the Land says abortions are legal...silly boy.

Pro-lifers are merely people who understand that one of the prerequisites of a civilized society is laws to protect the weak from the strong. This idea has been common to all civilized societies since the Code of Hammurabi, a code of laws set forth by that Pagan (note: not neo-Pagan humanist like you) King Hammurabi in ancient Mesopotamia, the birthplace of civilization.

..and abortions were common in all those societies...and fetuses got killed in all those societies..what YOU miss are the punishments for your daughters...what you resent is that women can be FREE to get a safe abortion..that`s all your "concern" is. You aren`t interested in Life...there isn`t a damn punishment or lecture or dire warning that has issued from your church or you that has EVER stopped abortions..you just want the woman to continue to SUFFER and DIE who dares get one.
>
>>...The people who made abortion legal ALSO have morals..and they all agree that aborting a fetus, a potential life is a TERRIBLE thing to do
>
>There are two fallacies here:

..look at you trying to sound grown up.
>
>1) A fetus is not a POTENTIAL life, he or she is a life.


..to your fucking God maybe..but we aren`t ruled by him, thank Ashur. Our LAWS tell us what a Life is...NOT you.

Have you ever seen a rock or a chunk of ice or a dead animal spring to life? Of course not. Anyone who understands the first thing about nature knows that life only comes from life and anything that ever will live already lives.

..whatever you just said has been rejected by every one empowerered to decide things..and that doesn`t include you or your church or god..and for a good reason..no one is steeped in MORE blood than your church...and your religion got its START through murder...so give it a rest..the idea that Chritianity is AGAINST blood and wants to PROTECT the innocent is absurd.


In common speech, we already understand this.

..our laws aren`t written in common speech by common people...at your picnics you can sdiscuss anything you want to..you can maintain the world is flat...but common minds don`t deicde these things for the rest of us.

That's why pregnant women talk about feeling the baby kick, not feeling the potential baby kick, and they are really not stupid enough to think that something that only has the potential to live, but not life itself, can kick.

..it is not legal Life..and this is a legal matter in the courts and lawbooks now. You can wail about it all you want to and women who want to keep their babies alive and kicking can do so...we`re talking about the women who don`t want to and who have been killing those fetuses for centuries and we don`t want to kill them too.
>
>2) If the people who made abortion legal really had morals, would they realize that it's so terrible and still want to do it? Dr. Bernard Nathansen is one of the people most instrumental in making abortion legal in the United States, and as he came to fully realize just how terrible of a thing he was doing, his morals converted him into a very active pro-lifer. We even know "Jane Doe's" name today, because she is a very active pro-lifer.

..they can do that..that`s what a democracy is...you can flip and flop..and you`re given all the chance you need to make us flip and flop and make everyone flip and flop...that doesn`t change the fact that the Law now has flipped on it`s right side and made abortions legal and safe...because we do NOT want the woman to die as well...and I believe nothing from you till you bring evidence..you are a Liar.
>
>Those who understand the horror, and persist in it, don't have morals in the principled sense in which morals are understood. Rather they have easily comprimised feelings and preferences.

...we have greater morals than you do...for while we would limit it to ONE death..you want TWO. If you had a way to end all abortions by making them IMPOSSIBLE to obtain..and we STOPPED you from pushing your magic button..you MIGHT have a case to make..thouhg I would still oppose it because it forces women..and I don`t like forcing them...but since you CAN`T...and since abortions will go right on happening..all your morals do is risk a SECOND life...we know the fetus dies ANYWAY..you can`t stop that...but WE can stop the woman from dying AT LEAST.


>
>>...but when your car needs gas, your country does TERRIBLE things to get it for you...
>
>The point is not as relevant as it seems at first blush, because abortion is an intrinsic moral evil, and war is not.


..abortion is NATURAL..people did it way before you said it weas wrong..and it has continued to this day..we have lessened its cost by saving the woman at least.

Over the centuries, moral philosophers and moral theologians have set aside principles of just warfare. The moral principle of double effect permits one to accept the evil side-effects of war in order to solve a problem that's bigger than the evils of the war, itself, provided that the evils are not directly intended and the good does not arise directly from the evil. For example, we all know that innocent people are killed in wars as collateral damage.


..I don`t know whom you`re lifting this from...as you are a Liar...but we aren`t discussing morality here...you are on one topic and we are on another...we agreed with your MORAL assessment that abortion is terrible...though we went on to say that consigning the woman todeath too is even MORE immoral, if she can be saved..we don`t believe in MORAL punishmenst.

We are taling Law here..you are talking morals..they are not the same thing..not even Justice is the same as Law...we have decided that a fetus is not legal Life..cry all you want to...we then decided that we can save the mother at least and that it would be better Law AND morality to save the one we CAN. Illegalizing abortions doesn`t stop them...it only increases the tragedy.

It is never permissable to deliberately target those innocent people, and the good resulting from the war must not result directly from the death of the innocent civilians. There were exceptions to this practice, for instance Hiroshima and the war in Iraq today.
>

..not at all the same. Our Law has changed to allow us to save the mother..we have become MORE moral with legalized abortions.

>Deliberate abortion is an intrinsic moral evil because the baby is directly killed and the desired end is gainded as a direct result of that killing. The death of the baby is not merely an unintended secondary evil.

...it is a fact no one has been able to change...the fetus is killed no matter what kind of procedure is used..but the woman can be saved if it`s clean and legal..you merely want the mother killed for her presumption..naturally that`s "moral" in your sheepshit heaven.
>
>Even if every war was for oil, and war were a terrible evil tantamount to deliberate abortion, it would not excuse abortion because two wrongs do not make a right. Being poked in the ear with a sharp stick still hurts even if being poked in the eye with a sharp stick also hurts.

..these analogies mean nothing...you can use all sorts of analogies to prove any legal thing is also an injustice..that isn`t the point...we are not dealing in a moral issue...just a legal one..it is inteeresting howevere that your morality leads to the mother`ps death while our LEGALITY saves her...weird no?
>
>>...and when a woman wants her body back for WHATEVER reason,,we allow HER to do terrible things she would do ANYWAY..
>
>First, she never lost her body. It's still there even with a baby inside, and the baby won't be there forever.

..Like women have said...these are THEIR bodies and they will determine thse things from now on..get used to it.

Even if a good end could justify an evil means, should one person die to free another for fewer than 9 months? Which is bigger, 9 months of one person's life or the whole rest of the youngest person possible's life?

..your morality will lead to the mother dying as well...while not stopping a single fetus from being aborted..we want to save lives..you want more dead people.
>
>Second, she would not usually do the terrible thing ANYWAY. It's a known fact that there were orders of magnitude fewer abortions when it was illegal. Back alley abortions were downright rare. The pro-aborts had to really cook the books to fool people into thinking otherwise. Look at Ireland today...or Malta or Portugal.

..these are you lies in service of god again..we know you by now..till you don`t supply the NAME anbd SOURCE and background of what you CLAIM...we will assume you are lying..if you had any facts you would place them here in an instant and BEG us to examine them closely..go to Armenia and play these games.
>
>>...we just don`t want to punish her as well
>
>Would you punish anyone? Would you punish a wife-beater, or a bank robber, or a rapist? There are laws in this world that put penalties on doing terrible things....abortion is a terrible thing. Are all those laws wrong, or just the ones against what you want to do?

..we do not puniush women with death any longer...it is their right and privillege to kill their own fetus...it also a fact of life...abortions were illegal and done by the thousands..contrary to what the person who is answering here for you says...that`s why they were made legal...to save a woman`s life...this is trite stuff...just right to awe yourself with. It`s your same moral lecture in an area that has no morals to it..it is LAW.
>
>>...that is YOUR morality not ours
>
>This is delusional. What's so is so even if no one believes it. For centuries, people believed that the Sun orbited the Earth, and not the other way around. During that time was the Sun orbiting the Earth? Of course not, we all know better. To think that there can be "your morality", and "our morality" is just as silly. There's one morality. Some people respect it others are in mighty denial. The idea that it's permissible to murder your own offspring is so obviously perverse, that it takes a mighty denial of reality to believe it, but believe you must, because convenience is your god, and the truth is not convenient in this case.

...there are all sorts of moralities in the world...yours is yours..your delusion is yours ..wear it in good health..terrorize your own families with it..we want no part of it.
>
>>...we stop at doing the terrible thing to the fetus..you go on...after the terrible thing is done to the fetus you want ANOTHER terrible thing done to the woman..because you are MORAL..we stop at one death..you want to go for TWO.
>
>Who is this second death you keep ranting about? Did someone mention capital punishment for abortion? I must have been elsewhere that day. There would be no second death unless the woman decided to break the law and put her own life at risk, she already condemned the baby.....

..don`t play cute...abortion was made legal because women were being killed in illegal abortions..it wasn`t because of a moral "lapse" that needs fixing by YOU and your god, of all people. It was the human and moral thing to do..to save the lives of the mother`s who opted for abortions..as they have a NATURAL right to do..a right that existed long before your god crawled from a swamp.
>
>-Paul



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