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=> Re: Armenia

Re: Armenia
Posted by Dean (Guest) - Tuesday, September 21 2004, 7:46:25 (CEST)
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Parhad?

You expect us to believe your ridiculous statement ... "hadn’t seen this" ? Of course you did, you replied several times within that thread?

Anyways,

It's easy for you to dismiss my historical points without presenting the supposed error.

Where in each point did I misstate a historic fact?

The bottom line is, just like in a court of law, people and organization are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

You have leveled an accusation, a charge of forced conversion, if you will, upon Christianity in the East, people of several nations, and regions. Yet you have no evidence. Your accusation wouldn’t make it past any grand jury. The accused would have to be released on there own recognizance since you have not made a sufficient case against them. Not a shred of evidence, no historical witnesses, no affidavits in the form of documents, not even circumstantial evidence. The burden of proof remains on you, the self-proclaimed prosecutor.

I have presented evidence as a defense attorney, even though my client is presumed innocent and in reality we have the right to remain silent and await the prosecution's evidence. Yet there is none. YOU HAVE OFFERED NOTHING

My evidence is the simple historic facts surrounding the events up to Armenia's acceptance of Christianity. It is not merely church history. The facts I presented are available in any encyclopedia or world history book. I challenge you again to find one erro in the facts. There was, and I repeat was NO ARMY, NOR A MILITANT CHURCH capable of forcing Armenians to convert at the time they did. It wasn’t until many years later that Constantine had the capability to force anyone to become Christian. And even then, there is no historical account that Rome conducted a crusade against Armenia.

-Dean

Parhad wrote:
>...I stopped reading you some time back..hadn`t seen this. That`s what boys who cry "CHRISTIAN" get.
>
>
>
>Historical Fact: The conversion of Armenia in 301 AD, is credited in part to the teachings of Gregory the Illuminator. Gregory, of Parthian stock, lived during the years 257-337 AD while Diocletian, emperor of Rome and Tiridates, King of Armenia and Ardashir I, founder of the Sassanid Dynasty of Persia, all persecuted Christians in their respective kingdoms.
>
>..that is church bullshit..we don`t take the bible`s word for Assyrians any longer either. If you examine that paragraph again..you`ll see the tricks..like Peter placing his idiocies between articles...the paragraph tells you the names of rulers and dates...so what? Where is that part of the argument? Then it slides in a sentence about "persecutions" figuring you`ll nod your heads like robots on cue. The "fact" isn`t a fact at all..it is merely an assertion...an assumption..and what is it based on? NOTHING....while you can find independent corroboration about the monarchs mentioned in the paragraph in lots of unbiased sources with nothing to gain by lying..you will find NOTHING about Gregory anywhere EXCEPT in Syriac manuscripts and books quoting them.... and other comic books...they do this in EVERY discussion..they throw up ten things no one would think to argue with...then sneak in their propaganda.
>
>...As far as the charge of persecution goes that too is bullshit. If you look at the record you`ll find all sorts of good reasons why cultures SO tolerant of others were so PISSED at this sefl-righteous rabble that dared tell THEM they were wrong and damned to hell. These people were nuts..they were fanatics..they were disruptive...I don`t have my library with me but there are letters from local officials complaining to the king of the trouble the Christians make...as Tiglath also showed us.
>
>That first paragraph merely has Dean`s ASSUMPTION that what his church told him is true..that is NOT a fact..it is NOT history..not REAL history..it is a CLAIM of the church...and as such serves its own interests...it is NOT historical fact...the mention of the other kings etc is merely to trick you into thinking the Gregory part is ALSO "fact".
>
>Historical Fact: Christians in Armenia existed even before Gregory, such as Gayane and Hripsime. Armenian history credits the knowledge of individual Christians to the teachings Bartholomew, Thaddeus and Mari the apostles.
>
>...Armenian CHRISTIAN history might well do that..that is NOT history. The Wsetern Church also credits mendicant friars with the same thing..they walked in among people who had their own cultures for centuries and millenia and magically transformed them all without a shot being fired...it is THEIR lie. This message of the Jew Messiah is the SAME one Rome peddled...and as they couldn`t get anyone to swallow it without killing them first...it is AS LIKELY the church in Armenia manged it the same way....
>
>...They ALL claim the same thing...yet it is not plausible and it has NEVER happened that way...ever! These are church myths...it is NOT unbiased historical fact...in any real enclyclopedia they would preface all this by saying these were the claims of the CHURCH...they would NOT say..this is FACT.
>
>Historical Fact: This was well before C., Flavius Valerius Constantinus AKA Constantine, emperor of Rome, gave freedom of worship and equal rights to all religious groups including Christians in 313 AD.
>
>...what that has to do with anything..except as more padding with unbiased historical accounts, so you`ll think the rest of it is history as well...I can`t tell. Any history book would have this fact about Constantine and the date of his edict..but NO history book will tell you it is a FACT that Constantine saw Jesus in the sky before the battle of Milvan Bridge...they will tell you it is a "fact" that Constantine SAID SO.
>
>Historical Fact: Every empire in the region persecuted Christians while Armenians were turning to Christ during the first and second centuries AD.
>
>...you have given church mythology...padded here and there so it doesn`t sink, with real and undeniable and MERE facts. You have NO evidence for any of this..and yet there are tons of reasons to assume the church likes this version of events...after all the witnesses were killed. It appeals to your vanity to think people leapt into Christ, obviously...but we have far more evidence, in the East as well..of what a pain in the neck you people were...and how unpopular and your numbers as well are a BIG LIE..you have no way in the world of stating that you had MILLIONS of converts and then claim they were ALL killed by pagans and ISLAM..which has been the ONLY one of your religions from hell to tolerate you ALL...and we know the pagans were far more tolerant than you people EVER were..or are.
>
>Historical Fact: During the years until 313 AD (when Rome officially recognized Christianity) there lacked any group, nation or kingdom capable of forcing anyone to become Christian. Christianity was comprised only of individuals and their families, mostly Jews, Mesopotamians and Greeks.
>
>..exactly..it appealed to a few here and there..who eventually spawned enough to make a minor presence..your church then fabricated the rest...
>
>Historical Fact: What parhad is suggesting was historically impossible since the army (i.e. Rome) or militant church (i.e. Roman Catholics) he so dearly needs to make his fable come true did not exist at the time!
>
>...I said..the Romans didn`t do it DIRECTLY...they just scared you all into believing Jesus was THE Messiah..so in that sense their armies DID make you boys go to the East with your reformed Judaism you later called Christianity...had there been no Roman Empire lording it over the Hebrews there would not have been the fervent calls for a Messiah and the need to grab Jesus and murder him so you could get to heaven..or even the score with the Romans...you were eventually thrown out by the Romans in 70 AD and went wandering...you were never popular nor welcome anywhere very much but TOLERATED...you certainly didn`t impress any Assyrians OR Armenians.
>
>..The best that can be said is that the historical record is not yet complete..as many recent discoveries have forced us to change long cherished beliefs..the fact remains..NO culture ever threw away its religion or way of life and belief for THAT shoddy rubbish.
>
>All you`ve given me is church manuscript history...and the fact that there was no army that we know of...or that the numbers you cite for ALL those people turning to Christ and then being persecuted to death can`t be substantiated still gives you no basis IN FACT..not WISH, but FACT that Armenians all leapt into Christ...you still have given NO evidence for how it happened..your Gregory is YOUR church`s myth...as such it is a "fact" of YOUR church`s trachings...which are not atudied anywhere as History.
>
>There is NO record of how it was really done...and since I said I didn`t know..and we now see that you don`t either...what is YOUR assumption..based on NON-church facts?
>
>I`m all eyeballs.
>
>-Dean



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