The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum

=> Re: Dear Lady

Re: Dear Lady
Posted by parhad (Guest) - Monday, July 19 2004, 18:22:59 (CEST)
from - Windows XP - Internet Explorer
Website:
Website title:

I remember a comment I made to you in that conversation two years ago that if Abraham never left Ur or Mesopotamia, and his children were born, and their children, eventually Jesus would have been born in Mesopotamia as well.

...He may have been...but his father was Yahwe...and he was NEVER an Assyrian god or anywhere near to someone Assyrians would have respected. Jesus was a nice fellow...but nothing he brought into the world was new. There was loving kindness and hard work and sacrfice in BetNahrain when there was none among the Hebrews who were practicing human sacrifice. The thing that makes Jesus JESUS is this Messiah business and THAT is Hebrew and not Assyrian. No one needed saving more than Hebrews and no one was less capabale of doing it themsleves than Hebrews and no one was in dire need of a Heaven somewhere away from Jerusalem more than the Hebrews. The Gilgamesh Epic is OUR bible...a simple one with no blood and guts..it tells the tale of a kingly man, who yet lacks a woman`s wisdom... a noble man who starts out asking those inane questions the Jews did...but who comes to realize that loving his family and being the best man/king he can be during his time on earth IS Heaven....that seeking more than that is folly and arrogance...and with that philosophy and religion in mind the descendants of Gilgamesh were able to build half of civilization without bothering what came AFTER..while the Jews went on squatting in the dust, eating bugs and mapping out the UNIVERSE and ETERNITY and MORALITY while ripping open the wombs of each other`s wives to prove the point.

...The distingusihing feature of Christianity is not Christ`s lovliness, but this Jewish Messiah business..had Jesus been born in BetNahrain he would NOT have been a "Messiah"..he would have been one of any civilized people, men and women, who helped further the cause of human dececny...something you can see in the bible the Hebrews were sadly lacking...except when they rubbed elbows with us..for which Yahwe called them whores anyway. It is indeed a great tragedy Jesus wasn`t born among us..we would not have insisted he had to be butchered so we could benefit..we knew how to benefit without slitting the throats of our first born or getting someone to crucify them OR getting Americans to kill them...and we sure as hell wouldn`t have played at eating him and drinking his blood..those were not games in Assyria and they sure as hell were no part of any religion of ours...those were Hebrew games and they`ve made them yours.


And I still don't think it's a Jew Religion, they took the Epics of Mesopotamia and converted them into some Jewish tales, but they are not originally Jewish, and by the way where are the Jews originally from anyway?

...Jesus was Jew..he said so himself and his father was a Jew god. Of course they stole from us..but that kind of flattery can only go so far. As to where the Jews were from, they only identified themselves as such when they returned from working in Egypt...because that "chosen" land couldn`t even support the few people living in it so they had to sell themselves into slavery periodically just to eat...everything about them stank of sheephit ad NOTHING of the sweet orchards along the Tigris

...As far as Abram goes..that kind of person and family values were not welcome in BetNahrain..he knew it and left to find the kind of people who DID sleep with their daughters, lose their wives in the desert and lie to the police about it and sacrifice their own sons. He was no loss to BetNahrain.


And remember Mr. Parhad, the Jews don't worship Jesus,


..of course they do and did from the beginning. His disciples were all Jews as were his friends and teachers and god. In his lifetime he was nothing BUT a Jew...of a mildly different perspective and during his lifetime and for at least 100 years after you HAD to be a Jew in order to follow Christ at all...and it was for opening up membership in the new Jewish cult to gentiles that Paul nearly got killed. Christians were Jews from the outset...especially as far as Christ`s first and foremost followers...as was the first "pope". Not all Jews followed him but then not all Assyrian Christians follow the same Christ.

and from my point of view the problem is not what Jesus said, the problem is our interpretation of what he said, and of course the Church has been a problem.

..."we" have no idea what he said. Our knowledge of the man and the events comes from questionable sources. I still say it as an insult and a deep slander to tell us the Assyrians threw their culture away for a Jewish one...what more than likely happened is that the Romans imposed their new State religion on us as they did on everyone they came in contact with...as their descendants in Europe imposed Jesus on Afria and the New World..and we KNOW none of them willingly became Christian..why would they? They had more reson to remain faithful to the gods and cultures that gave birth to their people and grew from them and with them...converting to Jesus would be like converting to Martians who come here babbling about a god we never heard of...you know the Romans converted us through force as the Church worked hand in hand with later governments to FORCE people into a unfied, national, state-sponsored "religion"..that ain`t religion at ALL. What the indigenous Assyrians and Apaches and Hottentots and Aztecs had was a religion...Christianity was merely a tool for enforcing conformity in the various lands a Christian empire conquered..with no respect shown to the native gods and cultures which is a FAR CRY from the Tower of Babel and all that implies..we were INCLUSIVE, Christians became EXCLUSIVE..and that was pure Hebrew and then Roman all the way.


I asked you in that conversation 2 years ago and I ask again, why didn't the Assyrians create a Holy Book out of their Religious knowledge, so that Assyrians today could have followed it?

..there are over a million clay tablets being kept under lock and key 100 years after they were discovered. Had those tablets contained a SINGLE line that reafirmed the bible..you can bet they would have been shouted to the world. Even the Dead Sea Scroills went through the most tortuous and byzantine trail before being SNEAKED out to the public...why?

...we DID leave our culture and religion in those tablets..yet all we ever hear is that they contain dull "business documents"...and we believe it. But even if nothing else survived, the Epic of Gilgamesh states our underlying beliefs very well...and they are to love and honor your family...build the walls well...be the best husband, man, father, son that you can, to listen to your mother/wife, the Divine Barmaid...to focus your energies on sanitation and hygiene and physical health here on earth...and to leave what you can`t know alone..it belongs to the eternal mysteries we haven`t the means or equipment to begin to figure out...to not lose sight of THIS world for hallucinations of the next..which is EXACTLY what the Hebrews couldn`t stand..for their just deserts in THIS life got them a goat turd "kingdom" on a rock in Jerusalem..while our focus on THIS life got us a Nineveh..and they never forgave us for it...and today they FINALLY got our boys to cheer its destruction..that`s Assyrian?
>
>
>All we`re saying is that it is preposterous for anyone to say Christians are the ONLY Assyrians allowed and then set rules and regulations that THEY will enforce to see if they`ll THINK about letting a Muslim or a Kurd join.
>
>********* I think if anyone from Mesopotamia considers himself Assyrian, it should be fine, regardless of Religion, but I have not heard many Iraqi-Muslims say such things, nor Kurdish-Muslims.

...and they haven`t seen us do much to secure the nation...though there are many Assyrian Christians living and working and fighting for their country. For us in America to impose standards..for you to say YOU haven`t been convinced...means nothing to them..why would it? Do you care what they say about you only being a Christian sect who, on arrival on Freedom`s Shore let us all see what you meant by "Assyrian" all those years in only building Churches? Where is the culture that MAKES an "ethnicity"? YOU are the ones screaming to the world ,"WE ARE CHRISTIANS"..and the few feelble attempts, the drawings of an Assyrian king..the plywood chariot and sequined gowns and balloons convince no one that we are REALLY PURE Assyrians!

...Besides which Muslim Assyrians have a whole other empire to revel in...it is you who made Christian synonymous with Assyrian so that when Christ lost in BetNahrain you refused to recognize the "theft" of ASSYRIA..when our people turned to Islam in great enough numbers to take the religion and the CULTURE of BetNahrain to Spain and the New World..for which they`ve never been forgiven...the way you want them to be "Assyrian" practically means they have to renounce 1300 years of their history and achievements..and they won`t do that. Instead they incorpprate their Assyrian Assyrian roots into their later flowering as Muslim Assyrians..as you could see in the old Iraqi web page where the cross was as pronounced as the Crescent BOTH of which are Assyrian symbols..as well as the Lamasu...and they know and I know and you know that if you had an "Assyrian site"...you`d have a Lamasu without balls and lots of crosses...but NO Muslim symblos..and that says it all.


And about the Kurds, who said that we don't want to live in peace with them or that they cant "join", but where it concerns the Kurds, they are not the Indigenous people of the North of Iraq and it seems at times they don't want to let us "join" in a region which is historically our own.

...in the first place, no one there trusts Christians..so you`re screwed from the get go. If we are to talk to the world we have to use its definitions, not Hannas. As Tiglath pointed out, the United Nations, which is the recognized authority on displaced people etc, says that 400 years of continued occupancy makes people indigenous..it doesn`t matter if the land was empty when they moved in, it doesn`t matter how they moved, it doesn`t matter if there were original owners or ten warring factions or how much killing they had to do in order to saty...look at Israel..if they stay that long they are "indigenous". So at the least we should find another word to describe what you mean or people will discount our entire argument once they realize we make up definitions to suit ourselves.

...You are living on stolen land here in America...which hasn`t even been "American" for the 400 years the world recognizes as the minimum time required under International Law to make its theft legitimate...and I doubt any Assyrian is going to give land back to any native and move out.

...The Kurds are "indigenous" by all standards of civilized speech. If you mean they aren`t the original owners then say so. But that gets us nowhere because you or anyone else can`t prove original title. Finding Assyrian treasures in the ground doesn`t make the people living above the soil Assyrian because they "say so". The Aramaic language was spoken by lots of people and lots of people coming to BetNahrain 1000 years ago would have learned it and passed it down and you have no way of knowing if your family line extends back to the original people or merely 600 years ago and your Christian religion doesn`t prove YOU were there from the beginning of the Christian presence in BetNahrain. For us to make such a claim also brings ridicule on our heads.

What WE say doesn`t matter anywhere else...I don`t even buy the argument..and I`m hardly an enemy of my heritage...I AM against any idea we put out that only increases the divisions..as this latest war against BetNahrain will divide us and breed more hatred for generations to come..it has made things MUCH WORSE..not better.


Even if some Assyrians converted and became Kurds, the Kurds were a invading force in the North of Iraq. Nonetheless that doesn't mean we should not be able to live with them, but we also deserve to have our right's in this region.

...you get citizenship rights anywhere you behave the part of citizens. If they won`t allow you to run your village churches with madrassahs in the basement that teach impressionable minds sedition...they are simply doing what any country would do. You are allowed to worship Jesus all you want to.,..what you are NOT allowed to do is to use your religion as PROOF that you are the original owners of the land....that NO ONE would let you do. If the country is Iraq, or becomes Kurdistan or Tazmania and that name is recognized by the body of nations as a legitimate theft, sanctified by Time, as their`s all have been...then they get to set the rules for citizenship..as America does...and as no Apache who survived gets any Apache Rights..you will not get any Assyrian Rights..and that`s normal and expected and legal in every way..you may not LIKE it...but then who has?
>
>A Heritage as old as ours with such poor records kept cannot possibly know today who is and who isn`t. And while you`re correct about the lovely dress you made...you should have seen my first attempts. I`ve seen books with photos of the most beautiful Iraqi women...as lovely as you...who were Muslim...modeling dresses in Baghdad years ago that were indeed carefully and lovingly made to resemble the originals..and they were made by professionals so you have nothing to apologize for.
>
>******** Thanks :)!
>
>Now if those women are Muslims and if they say they are representing their Iraqi Heritage...the Christians among us say they are "Arabizing" Assyrian history. They are NOT! If they were Christians you wouldn't`t say that and that`s my point.. The ancient Assyrian Heritage is indeed today`s Iraqi Heritage..being Muslim or not and speaking Aramaic or not changes nothing.
>
>******** I don't think they are Arabizing Assyrian history, but most of them believe they are Arabs not Assyrians,

..they are Iraqi women...Arab women are in Arabia. You really MUST question, not reject outright, just QUESTION these dear beliefs you have that were taught to you by priests when you were a child..remember, we have no secular schools anywhere. This is shoddy history, in fact it`s hysteria..it isn`t history at all. No one in his or her right mind would think they are Assyrians..I sure as hell don`t and I never did. I believe I am descended in some ways from the people, ALL the people, of that region I was born in. To me that includes the glorious Islamic Empire centered in Baghdad that I am VERY proud of. Who do you think built Baghdad, on top of Babylon and the Alhambra and the great mosque of Cordoba....desert Arabs from tents and mud huts? Look at how we rob our children of such a magnificent legacy that came ON TOP of our Assyrian one...and make them hate what were their OWN great Muslims.


so the history of the Assyrians is also theirs, but some of them are confused and believe themselves to be "Arabs" because they are Muslim. I have heard of Iraqi Muslims calling themselves Assyrian but I've never met one.

...they all admit they are of Assyrian DESCENT...but that`s not the same thing as claiming to BE Assyrian. I doubt they think of themselves as Abbasids either...or Haroun al Rasids...they are IRAQI in the modern era, a People made up of one of the richest inheritances in the WORLD...who are at each others throats and will kill each other off completely for variants of a Jew religion..that is what we want to disucss and do something about.
>
>When you Christians stop saying Muslims can`t be Assyrians...I^ll stop using your argument against you...we`re either in this thing together or no one gets the prize...and as far as Muslim Assyrians killing Christian Assyrians...that`s hardly a one way street and no proof at all that they can`t be the same people..in fact looking at the way Christians kill Christians over arcane and ridiculous details..it should come as NO surprise that Assyrian would kill Assyrian..over religion ESPECIALLY.
>
>****** Muslim's can say they are Assyrian.

...they don`t WANT to...there is no NEED to...The French don`t call themselves the people of Gaul any longer either. They are happy to be Iraqi with ALL that legacy..you are not pleased with because the country is Muslim..and Islam pushed Christ out and is from Arabia, the RELIGION I mean..and your silly priesthood concocted an argument from all that claiming Muslims in Iraq are all Arabs who should leave..even if that WERE true...why should they leave? According to the UN...NOT Hanna...if they are Arabs, they are now the indigenous people of Iraq, if not the original..but so what..what original people anywhere were given anything back..so that in the end all of this is LITERALLY about NOTHING.


The more Assyrians the merrier! About the Killing of Assyrians-Christians, since we are and were a minority in the region, we have been slaughtered a couple of times by "Muslims" even if we were once the same people, now we are considered as third class citizens in the Region, there are more Animal Right's in the world then Assyrian-Christian right's in Iraq.

..there is nothing unusual or exclusive to YOU in being slaughtered...happens all the time..so what? It`s Life..you take your hard knocks and you MOVE ON..you don`t enage in memeory fests where you ENSURE you`ll get slaughterd all over again. Don`t make our past our future..which is all this nationalism nonsense will achieve..as a minority we can`t DEMAND anything..period!
>
>And, finally...you cannot be Assyrian Christian..you can be Iraqi Christian or American Christian...or Israeli Muslim...but you don`t follow Ashur any longer...and you can`t be designated by TWO gods in your hyphenated names...there is no Assyrian nation today and if there was even a Triangle...the residents of it would not be of ONE religion..not if it`s a free democracy..so that to call yourselves Assyrian Christians...would mean Muslims in that triangle would be Muslim Assyrians and any Jews there would be Assyrian Jews..and there you have it...we`re right back where we started from...for any country to be called Assyria..is like calling a country Christlandia..it just doesn't`t work.
>
>****** I was born in Lebanon, so I cant be Iraqi-Christian even though my dad is Iraqi, I can be Assyrian-Christian since my parents are both Assyrian, not having a recognized homeland doesn't make it incorrect to call ourselves Assyrians.


..of course it does..you can`t call yourself an Albionist...there is no Albion any longer..it`s England..you are English. There is no Assyria anywhere...therefore you can`t claim any nationality from a nation that doesn`t exist...you can do as the Jews did when they had no nation..call yourselves by the name of your GOD...if you KEPT that god. But you didn`t..you have a new one...and to call yourselves by the names of TWO gods is silly.

Just like muslims of Iraq can be Assyrian-Muslims. On the other hand this point must be made, the Assyrian-Muslims of Iraq have intermarried much more with foreign cultures, like Arabs etc, but the Assyrian-Christians have mostly intermarried with their own people which makes them closer genetically to the Ancient Assyrians then Assyrian-Muslims per say.

..no it doesn`t. You people merely bannish and think of as dead those who marry other people..like Peter Jassim disowned his sister from doing. The genes of Assyrians back then were ALREADY a hodge podge..there ARE no pure anythings on this planet...and the culture you call Assyrian..is like the religion you call Assyrian..it is a Jewish one..we lost our Assyrian everything ages ago...you people merely tack the name on and it`s become a very TACKY name...I see it for what it is..that`s why I set a much higher standard for what`s going to be presented to the world as "Assyrian"..because we`re too easy to dismiss as it is...but when we trot out our cardboard and tinsel Chariot parades...then we dimiss OURSELVES.

While you can doubt the jerks who put those winged dogs on the Civic Club roof and painted over the cracks that developed from cheap and shoddy worksmanship with GOLD paint, are "proud" Assyrians of ANY kind..let alone take any pride in the work they do...NO ONE can doubt the pride in heritage OR worksmanship that placed the Ashurbanipal where it is today...and I don`t believe for a minute I am an ASSYRIAN in any meaningful sense of the word...but by Ashur I am proud of his legacy and gift to me and the world through his people ages ago...and I can call to that feeling to create what can`t be laughed at by anyone else EXCEPT these boys of ours.

...had someone dared put up a statue of Jesus as grotesque and insulting and gorss as those Winged Dogs there would have been a hue and outcry that someone was INSULTING Jesus...as I got blasted for my portrait of "Jesus The Jew". But no one has any deep feeling or committment to the ASSYRIAN Legacy...NOt the Christian one....all these boys piss on and crap on our Assyrian legacy...they engage in things as "Assyrians" they would NEVER tolerate for their Christian Faith. Christianity is alive and well..it has murdered millions of Jews and put the rest in a ghetto patrolled by Muslims who until the Christians came were the best friends the Jews EVER had...and today is at work on Islam, in between having murdered countless millions of its OWN Christians...Christianity is under no threat..it has huge financial reserves, a corp of dedicated worker bees..it is protected by governments and given tax incentives, it has media outelts of its own, resorts, owne vast amounts of property and on and on.

In 2500 years there has been ONE Assyrian monument installed by ONE Asyrian who is PROUD to say he is not Christians..and for THAT...disregarding all I^ve done for the name of Ashur and the glory of his memeory and people..I`ve been called every name you can think of....by whom? Assyrians..or Christians?
>
>*****Ashur is the "all seeing", is the all seeing not the Universal God?

..there is no univeral god..that`s insanity. People make gods to suit their need...Ashur suited our need to create an inclusive empire at that time because Humanity could not progress with highway robbers between each city...simple as that...and we needed to darw on all the resources and People of that region or we would have remained cloistered behind closed walls...inbreeding till we went insane...like the Hebrews went Mad.
>
>But..as you don`t have a nation or triangle and never will...especially after this last bit of inhumane folly...you cannot call yourselves by the names of TWO gods..that ain`t monotheism.
>
>**** The term "triangle" is used to point out a specific geographic region.

...I understand that...but we can`t claim it or anything else.
>
>In any case...it figures we`d have women come here and none of the male worriers who post like mice and brag that they make batter warriors than any ten thousand other men.
>
>***** I am also a one woman army hh :)!
>
>Thank you again for making us all proud.
>
>****Your welcome!
>
>Abbey



---------------------


The full topic:



Content-length: 24641
Content-type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded
Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/vnd.ms-excel, applicatio...
Accept-encoding: gzip, deflate
Accept-language: es-mx
Cache-control: no-cache
Connection: Keep-Alive
Cookie: *hidded*
Host: www.insideassyria.com
Referer: http://www.insideassyria.com/rkvsf2/rkvsf_core.php?Re_Dear_Lady-2MQa.5KUq.QUOTE
User-agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; MSN 6.1; MSNbMSFT; MSNmes-mx; MSNc00; v5m)



Powered by RedKernel V.S. Forum 1.2.b9