The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum
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Posted by
parhad
(Guest)
- Tuesday, September 7 2004, 16:16:26 (CEST) from -  Windows XP -  Internet ExplorerWebsite: Website title: |
Shushan wrote: >farid wrote: >Assyrian Muslims..having refused to lay down and die...like when did they ever...are making the United States "rethink" elections in Iraq...it`s no victory..not in the usual sense...shattering Iraqi society and leaving it in ruins is the Bush strategy and it`s working too well...our peope are playing their parts..unfortunately...it was in the script..at least they`re behaving true to form... > >I have a few questions for you. > >We all know that Sadam's regime was brutal and unfair and at times evil to its people with gassing of the kurds and arabization policies. ...We do? Who told us so? Do we know what Rios Mont did? Do we know what Pinochet did? Do we fully understand the implications of the Vietnam War? Now that we know another was used to get us to kill a nation that was ptactically ALL children as their parents had been in continuous war for 40 years...first against the Chineses and then the French...do we fully understand what murdering over three million innocent men, women and children means? Do we understand that we dropped atom bombs on the CHILDREN and mothers of the enemy soldiers our soldiers were facing...do we know the history of oppression of Blacks in the South...the lynchings and beatings ...do we know that no one used any of this as an excuse to make war on us..to call us Evil and worthy of extermination...do we admit that Saddam was one many goons the United States supports and uses around the world to create chaos and havoc so we can go on enjoying our envious lifestyle? ...Saddam was faced with what the United States faces now, though they couldn`t be happier...he had a country with people in it pullling in all directions...People very often used and lied to and then dumped by the United States...he tried to forge one nation to meet the constant meddling by the UNITED States...and GREAT Britian who`d been playing factions off within his country and others in the MidEast seince oil was first dicovered there...It was a near impossible thing to do..especially with the United States looking over his shoulder. Life was very good the last years of Saddam`s reign before the United States targetted him...Iraq had money to spare, it`s own not anyone else`s...health care and education were amonmg the best, better than in America...prosperity and the chance of peace, imposed as it is anywhere else would have meant growth of a more confident and open society in time...after all they didn`t have the Parliamnetary, Enlightenment tradition we had to begin with..it was a longer, tougher haul for them..but they were on their way...the United States is a Corporation...and it doesn`t like competition any more than Bill Gates does. You can see in the way Jassim and the rest behave when they come here and have the chance to be FREE and run a forum JUST a Forum how hard it is to shake the atmosphere they grew up in..it`s what Iraq was facing in its long road to a REAL Democracy..it doesn`t come naturally to these people, they have no tradition for pluralistic and OPEN talking and thinking..they just want to be Tyrants in a DEMOCRACY! We don`t "know" a damn thing about what went on...let`s be scientific and rigorous...I don`t KNOW a damn thing about Iraq...but I do know what the United States has done before...and I know what it`s doing now...I know it`s enslaving Iraq, not liberationg it...I know they are there to create as much mayhem and break things down as they can..I know they want a basket case where an independent country used to be...I know they`re making those same noises about Iran and Syria...I know they don`t feel the same about North Korea whom they CAUGHT shipping missles half way round the world..I know they had their sights on Iraq before 9/11...I know the government is made of oil people who`re used to easy money by now..no more than street gang thugs supplying drugs to a dependent populace..and street gangs will kill anybody who messes with their turff or threatens their supply...these things I know far better than I know what Saddam did to his people....I know we just found Christians ran liquour stores and lived in peace and neighborly friendliness with Muslims living nexr door to their Churches...I don`t KNOW what Saddam did with Kurds....but what he did in no way justifies what the United States is doing...we seem to be acting the part of the bigger Thug..the more murderous force...who caused the starvation of 500,000 children AT LEAST? Who enunciated that as a "policy"...Saddam? You and Tiglath talk a lot about Iraqi's being Assyrian Muslims. Do you really think that many Muslims living in Iraq identify themselves as Assyrians, considering the lengths Sadam went to to Arabaize Assyrians, do you think that anything but Iraqi national pride was instilled in the school and political systems? ...He didn`t Arabize anybody. That`s another thing for which the boys have no evidence...he tried to forge a common identity and connect it to the larger group in the MidEast..they speak ARABIC...the boys all spoke it ANYWAY...these complaints come from the villages where the only schooling open to boys was at the church..and the church in the villages is still pissed that Islam trumped Jesus...you can imagine the quality of that "education"..we see the graduates in Jassim and the rest of them...Saddam built government schools in those villages...boys who wanted higher education had to go...but they went with a grudge and a chip on their shoulders..whereas in their church schools the priest wove bullshit but pleasant bullshit about them being the original owners of tha land because they were CHRISTIAN...and taught them all about Syriac manuscripts..they found none of that in government schools and universities.,...but they had to swallow it like Rissian college students had to sing the praises of the Communist Party when they KNEW it was all a lie...their education was now conducted in Arabic...a language they spoke anyway...but now had to learn IRAQI history...and EVERY nation has its national LIE...Saddam wanted to associate his country with the Arabic SPEAKING world..the boys and their priests wanted the comfort and security they thought comes from the ENGLISH SPEAKING World...because it is a CHRISTIAN religious group. Saddam had his myth...that the people of Iraq belonged to the Arab World..and they do..as much as the Christians there do...but he NEVER said the Assyrians were Arabs...he said the Muslims of Iraq were ALSO descended from the people of BetNahrain..which they are...of course. To bolster their idiotic church lessons the boys INSIST that no Assyrian would have converted to Islam..that is an absurd point...and they use the fact that none of them TALK about it A LOT as proof that they aren`t...well Muslim Assyrians don`t TALK...they have a country and they run it..and in textbooks and museums they all acknowledge that they are the descendants of the ancients..every Muslim Assyrian KNOWS that...but they have 1400 years as Muslims...with yet ANOTHER glorious empire to their credit..the Islamic one which was among the greatest the world has seen..because its underpinnings were all Mesopotamian...US. To them their latest achievemnt is foremost in their minds and on their tongues..to the boys the last 1400 years were a tragedy..because Christ lost out...THEY are fixated 1400 years ago when they were Christians and dominant..to them that`s ALL the legitimate history they`re willing to recognize, the rest being a "crime" and "usurpation". The boys "reason" that since Islam came from Arabia and they KNOW no Assyrian adopted it...therfore any MUSLIM in Iraq today originally came fom Arabia with the Arab armies and therefore is a foreigner..never mind that even if that were true...after 1400 years...four times as long as America came into being by STEALING land from THEIR indigenous people...that any descendants of those original Areabs are INDIGENOUS...UN says so..so does everyone else...after a millenium and a half..you are INDIGENOUS. But more than that...this same argument can be used against Christians, whose religion came from Israel so that ANY Christian in BetNahrain or ANYWHERE in the world is really Jew and belongs in Israel... Sure they are probably proud to be the site of the center of the start of civilization and the garden of Eden, but I read an article once where they talked about that in a major magazine and never mentioned Assyrian, they just said Iraqi's ancestors... so don't you think that Iraq will eventually consume the Assyrian name and identity as arabization tried, ...so is America...Assyrians in America after one or two generations, never mind 1,400 YEARS..are losing their language and any ties to the old ways..Assyrians in CHRISTIAN America aren`t giving their children Assyrian names...there is no Assyrian culture, there is no anchor anywhere but the church and it`s as destrcutive as it ever was...there soon won`t be church either...Assyrian`s in America can`t WAIT to be Americanized with "nationalists" Like Firas Jatou changing his OWN name to the more anglecized Firas ROSS...who yet might morph into Frank Ross. Who made him do it? Who forced him to change his ASSYRIAN name..and I`ll bet his children are Scott and Heather...Ross is trying to GET AHEAD..he wants to BLEND IN with that BAGGAGE that might, especially in coming years, mark his children as one of "those". It`s no different than what they did in Iraq..the church has made such a point of saying that you HAVE to be Christian to be Assyrian that NO Muslim Assyrian is going to use Christian ASSYRIAN as a point of identity..they do indeed say they are decsnded form the ancient Assyrians when there WAS no Christian OR Muslim religion..but as the Christians identify "Assyrian" with Christian..the Muslim`s identify themselves TODAY with Islam...BUT, they are proud of their modern achievements as Muslims with another great empire to their name...it is no more than identifyng with the axis of power and common-religion that makes them say they are a part of the Arab world..which is by FAR the closer of the two...than the Christians who yearn for and pine for and work for the English WORLD! It`s these damned religions that fractured us and are still doing it today...to our ruin. and that is a good reason for Assyrians to be vocal, and if there are Assyrian Muslims, they should be fighting to make democracy stable and working with their Assyrian Christian brethren to make Assyrian a more sizable voice in Iraq? ...they are not "Assyrians"...they have a claim to being DESCENDED from the ancient Assyrians in NO way they can prove. This language proves nothing as everyone spoke it back then..and it is the language of their RELIGION...anyone moving to that region 1000 years ago would have learned the LANGUAGE. Assyrians aren`t Assyrian in any MEANINGFUL way...it`s ALL Christian all the time and religion is NOT ethnicity...not any more. ...America was a stable democracy all the years it had Slavery and then Oppression under Jim Crow..it was a stable Demcoracy all the years it fought to deny women the Vote...and equal pay, which they still don`t get...what has a stable demcoracy to do with granting minorities THEIR voice and women were in the MAJORITY? The boys use the word in a completely unreleated sense...Nazi Germany was born from a Democracy as well..what are you people TALKING about? Democracy isn`t Utopia..it isn`t HEAVEN. If you have a majority of vampires in your Democracy it will be a democrcay of vampires..being a democracy doesn`t mean there will be justice for ALL..it means the majority will RULE and the majority in Iraq now has all the MORE reason to resent Western Christianity and ANYONE associated with it..and they`ll see the Christians there as more potential collaborators who would call down THIS kind of "liberation" on their OWN country...how will a Democracy now in Iraq improve conditions for Christians? Let them vote..let them vote all they want to...Blacks in Florida voted...we in America voted..what good did it do us? What are you people TALKING about? > >And don't you think that the majority of the Muslims are Arab and only some Assyrian and some intermixing and not all Assyrians as some keep impying? I would not mind if all Iraq took the Assyrian identity but couldn't that just be a ploy to minimize Assyrian Christians and their indigenous rights? ..why SHOULD they use an identity long dead in Iraq to define themselves TODAY? Do you think if Iraq was named Assyria and all Iraqi Muslims called themselves Assyrians and insisted you HAD to be Muslim to be Assyrian..do you think Jassim would call himself Assyrian? This is ONLY a religious name...they are trying to legitimize the theft of land for CHRIST...they have no evidence that stands up anywhere.,..to simply call themselves Assyrian proves nothing..will they also deny Assyrian status to those in America who in fifty years won`t TALK about being Assyrian? It turns out that to be Assyrian you have to be FIRST of all Christian..and then you have to AGREE with whomever is talking the MOST and the LOUDEST...who is him or herself only ONE group of them who are ALL talking and ALL TALK..what kind of Assyrian is THIS? Where did your science go to? Being "vocal" in this case just means being stupid REALLY LOUD. And aren't most Iraqis just as proud to be Arab as we are to be Assyrian.. ..they are NOT Arab! Arabs are from Arabia...Egyptians are from Egypt...Syrians from Syria...Iraqis from Iraq. The boys make their religion and LANGUAGE the main syupports of their claim to being Assyrian...they say it is an Assyrian "language"...and so they are ASSYRIAN..they look at anyone who speaks Arabic and say they must be ARABIC..the boys are stupid..we know that. People who are from Australia speak ENGLISH..that does NOT make them English...Americans aren`t English either for speaking the language...Arabic is the domiannt LANGUAGE in that region..like "Assyrian" once was...but Egyptians and Hebrews who spoke the Assyrian language were NOT Assyrians. so why do you make it sound like the insurgents are Assyrian? ..there ARE no Assyrians strictly speaking anywhere in the world and there haven`t been for at least 1000 years. Neither religion can be a SIGN that you are an Assyrian..neither does language prove anything. I believe the blood and genes of all those people of BetNahrain..which the boys oddly enough claim ALL died out EXCEPT Assyrians and they are PURE Assyrian..what happened to science..to Reason and logic? I believe they are as much descended from the ancients as I am...only they do more than TALK..they FIGHT to defend their homeland BetNahrain from the attack of Christians..an attack urged on by Christian Assyrins...which one is acting more the part of the ancients? That is why we American Assyrians are so proAmerican cause we don't want to be associated with people against our own country, ...what kind of scientist are you? Who in Iraq was EVER against the United States? What have Iraqis DONE to the United States to deserve this? and you continually stressing that making insurgents out to be all Assyrian, who the American goverment see as terrorists, even though I know you see them as freedom fighters. Then you get made when Assyrian Christians lving in America and many citzens are vocally in support of their country of America... of course we are, that is were our loyalty lies. ...my loyalty is to America also...but not these corporate heads who stole the White House...Germans believed they were being loyal when they supported Hitler..and he led them right into the toilet. Anyone who claims Iraqis have no right to defend themselves when attacked for 14 fucking years is crazy...when America uses an attack by 15 Saudis as an excuse it was waiting for to go kill IRAQIS while its president STILL does business with SAUDIS are their own worst enemies...The Assyrian Freedom Fighters of Iraq are doing nothing more than any people on earth would do when attacked...setting up puppets fools no one..hell we even got to WATCH as they put their own people in place..people who`d been absent from Iraq for 30 years and more...many of them notorious crooks and traitors to the country already...we SAW it take place and you STILL say they are a legitimate government to be OBEYED? If you want to stand all Reason on its head just so your pet ideas about Christians can be fulfilled..go ahead..but it does America no good for its citizens to become fools, scoundrels and murderers..no good at all. We can think invading Iraq was a mistake and feel horrible for the turmoil created and hope our country does right by Iraq, but we are Americans and support out country. ..that is an absurd statement...after a crimminal act like the war on Iraq how do you "hope" the criminals do right? And ther are millions of Americans who feel this nwar was a crime..are they traitors to America? If you believed Hitler was bad for Germany, whom where you betraying? ...with this global bullshit it`s time to see the planet as our home...America cannot go on abusing the rest of the people on the planet..it can`t go on stealing resources so its billionaires can become trillionaires...this is not MY country...my country has been attacked from the inside by Corporations..as they are attacking countries and the poor of the world..whose numbers at home and abroad are growing...your views have nothing of science about them..they are pure jingoism. > >And why do you cheer on the insurgents? Granted I understand that people were killed, homes and jobs lost so there are a lot of angry Iraqis but aren't some of them foreigners coming in to prevent democracy? ..the only foreigners in Iraq are the American and British and those working with them to destroy Iraq..as an independant country and make an American camp of it. This insistance that the Iraqi people on their own would do NOTHING is absurd..and if Syrians and Iranians and others, seeing how easily America got away with what it is doing in Iraq for FOURTEEN years and hearing that Iran and Syria are next..take it into their heads to help their own people by helping Iraq..call it PRE-EMPTIVE DEFENSE...where did you get yoiur ideas of how people behave from? And isn't democracy the only hope right now for a stable free prosperous Iraq and one with ethnic and religious tolerance? ...it was America`s hope as well...and we`ve seen how it can be perverted..and using Christr has been the Front of choice. Democracy in itself means majority rule..that`s ALL. And this is NOT the way to bring Democracy to a country...it has to grow from within..we`ve had centuries of Parliamentary tradition to get here...you cannot IMPOSE it...and you cannot impose at the point of a GUN..you can brainwash people into Christ..you can`t do it into Democracy...this is NOT their goal for Iraq..Iraq will be a Corporate State...run by executives..the vote will only affect those areas of least significance..the soul of the nation is being destroyed and what`s left will be imprisoned..the body will be put to work..Iraq is the New World Order Auschwitz...with the inmates being allowed to decide what color uniforms they wear...they will create a wasteland and call it Democracy...and give them time and they`ll do it here...they`re well on their way already. These insurgets are disrupting reconstruction efforts which not only hurts the Iraqi people getting back to prosperity, the more US soldiers they kill, the more pressure Americans will put on our withdrawal and if they withdraw too soon, not only will democracy fail and chaos rule, and Iraw loose all the reconstruction efforts owed them, but there will be no religious freedom and won't the fanatics take over.. ...I`m sorry...theis part is just too silly to take seriously..you believe it if you want to. Radicalism was BROUGHT to Iraq and let loose by Bush...not Saddam who fought like hell to keep it sown..this is too silly. and not only will Assyrian Christians and all Christians there be in trouble, so will all non fundamentalist Islam like the insurgents more than likely are be in grave danger, including Ashurists and Atheists and any other nonMuslim religion anyone is brave enough to profess to in an Islamic state. By the way, are there any Assyrians that follow the religion of old that you and Tiglath are trying to revive of Ashur? and how many? And what do the Muslim majority think and are they seen as dhmimii or infadel? ...these areŽ`t things I find worthy of discussion. You guys are stuck in another age..you don`t see what`s coming..you`re judging and measurting by Dhimmi standards..like those "Morning in America" adds Reagan was famous for..you`re in your own kind of nostalgia...this reality utterly escapes you. > >Just curious. >Shush --------------------- |
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