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=> Re: god-O-rama

Re: god-O-rama
Posted by Dubya (Guest) - Thursday, September 30 2004, 8:44:03 (CEST)
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parhad wrote:
>There is nothing to be gained by discussing religion with a non-believer. Religion is by definition irrational…it only makes sense if you accept the various premises and a discussion of the irrational will become irrational and provoke irrational feelings and then irrational behavior resulting usually in ugliness and then violence It`s useless to examine it with the intention of validating it in any universal way, like even complex matters such as nuclear fission can be explained to anyone`s satisfaction if done well. You can`t prove religion “works” to a non-believer…and even though you can`t get most people to understand complex physics you can set up tests and experiments that verify the concept…even where its workings remain vague. There is no way to verify religion…except to see what its impact is on believers. If it makes fine human beans out of the vast majority of them..it is a “good” force”. If it produces violent bigots or ineffective leaders at the highest end…it cannot be good.
>
>If you tell me of the number of times prayer is answered…I`ll point out the far more numerous instances when it wasn`t and in addition point out the rationale behind the acceptance of the far greater instances of its inefficacy that seeks to explain the failure as further proof that God didn`t deem it fit to answer all the unanswered prayers…this is obvious flim flam. The various excuses made for the failure of religion all indicate a very human and wiley mind behind all of this godliness.
>
>If I don`t believe what Jew fishermen said 2000 years ago, I`m hardly likely to credit everything said ABOUT their claims since then….the number of books written and blood shed and scholars involved all strike me as so much insanity heaped upon madness, not “proof” of the inherent correctness and veracity else, “why so much noise and bother over nothing more than a compound lie”? People lie…we know that…they tell fantastic lies and believe that kind better than any other. If one studies not the big Lie, but the objective conditions surrounding the birth or need for the lie, I believe one can come to a better understanding of its nature than to insist that the more fantastic the lie the more bevievable for “faith “ is a matter of accepting what doesn`t make sense, therefore the more assinine the greater your faith must be.
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>This is rewarding people for a sort of para-wisdom for getting stupider and stupider. Why would you need faith to accept what is indisputable and readily proveable? By definition "Faith" is required by the con artist in order to make his point, not the rational thinker. To be understood the thinker needs clarity and a sort of cleanliness of purpose. It`s not that you have to accept “X” on faith..the problem begins when you have to accept Faith, on faith. That`s building too much with too little.
>
>What makes people believe in religions in the first place…how much of it is merely early indoctrination of a kind whose effects leave the individual unable to seriously challenge or question what was presented as “universal” and beyond challeng? What forces in society give birth to new religions or new variants..these are all things one can examine to understand the NATURE of people`s need for religions. ..but examining religions themselves is useless unless you are a pedant who merely seeks to memorize all nuances of Voodooim or Catholicism, makes little difference objectively which you choose.
>
>Why was Protestantism born? What forces here on earth led some to believe a god spoke to them and demanded the change…and how did this affect relations between the new god ideas and the old god ideas…were the changes welcome or did they result in bloodshed and the breaking of all godly rules, new and old? And once “god spoke” for the change…after having spoken initially for the universality of his religion 1,500 years earlier..what was behind all the other changes and permutations since the Reformation…each of which was also dictated by a universal god seeking the universal application of his universal message? Who, exactly, is having trouble getting it right?
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>The forces that created Christianity had more to do with the conditions under which Hebrew society existed at the time and before…than they did with any miraculous content in Jesus. Protestantism came about because of what was so grossly wrong with Christian society, rather than for any outstandingly miraculous new concept in Luther.
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>Suspending Reason is a dangerous game. Teaching children that it has severe limitations which can be made up for by “faith” and “hope” is akin to teaching that exercise isn`t important and moreover risks serious injury..so sit there, be safe…and "imagine" sports. To not exercise human reason means to never grasp its beauty and power…and limitations as well….so that the human "thinks" with a limited capacity and IN that limited capacity erroneously believes what was taught: that Reason is no great thing where complex issues are involved because the person lacks the reasoning capacity that would show this conclusion to be incorrect. If you don`t teach children about fire they will burn themselves and believe fire is far too dangerous to even cook with.
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>No matter how sophisticated or popular the religion…whether a totem religion of 7000 years ago or Christianity today…to suspend Reason is to travel back in Time when supersitition ruled the human mind…and that can`t be good.
>
>There is no evidence for any claim in any religion…it is all a matter of Faith…that it is so, may explain the barbaric things done in its name and under its influence, for Reason tells you it`s incorrect to force people into any belief pattern whereas religion mandates and sanctifies evangelicalism. Reason would tell you that if other people have different gods, then your`s is just as questionable to them as their`s are to you. The next step would be the growth of Tolerance…for as you wish your god respected you would respect the religion of others. That is, you would feel that way if Reason held its sacred place in your being. If it was something you were told to distrust, or was of secondary importance and therefore never devloped, you may not see the benefit of univeral tolerance..but rather the emotional fervor of your Faith, lacking Reason to check it, would convince you that you MUST be right and everyone else wrong...and the notion that it is your DUTY to "save" them from their error can`t be far behind..and as they`ll resist your attempts to negate their own beliefs....you`re ready for Holy Wars. And that`s something we`re moving close to again.
>
>Wherever religious passions run highest you`ll also see an increase in violence born of intolerance and bigotry..and the people will sound less and less reasonable and more and more irrational and downright dumb…unable to comprehend the simplest argument as to what has gone terribly wrong, when the inspiration of a divine being is causing murder and mayhem, people will instead plow forward believing they are confronting Evil instead of the same religious passions and loyalties they hold dear, in others, but for a different god .
>
>Why is there more bloodshed and hatred with an increase in religious fervor? This is indeed a big puzzle…if you lack Reason, whereas if you exercise some, it`s very easy to understand. The combination of irrationality, fervor and blind faith in your own god will cause you to hate Evil…and the greatest example of Evil you`ll see will exist in those who deny the OBVIOUS supremacy of Good…YOUR Good…as exemplified in your God.
>
>It isn`t that good Protestants in Ireland are killing Bad Catholics…good PEOPLE are brought to kill other good people for religion. Pious Muslims…pious Protestants and pious Catholics..all of them decent and good parents…can be enticed to kill each other, not for any bad things they do in their families or communities or to other communities..but simply because their belief system…even though it inspires them to decent behavior as much and as often as any other, as spouse or parent or citizen, still marks them as belonging to an Evil religion…one that denies YOUR religion`s supremacy. And that can be enough to bring on a war.
>
>The Golden Assyrian Rule is all anyone needs. Stripped of all ritual…with no demons or fantastical rewards..requiring no temples, no tax deducations…no priests or administrators..no libraries crammed full with dusty tomes..no hordes of scholars on all sides confounding each other and the rest of humanity…but simply an appeal to Reason…to clean Logic. If you don`t like being beaten..do not beat others. If you would like to be heard and respected for your opinions…listen to and respect the opinions of others to the same degree you would expect. If you don`t mind some sarcasm used against you..then you use the same level towards others…if they don`t like it, they won`t spread it further than those few who don`t mind it. The Rule does not make for a perfect society but then neither has any religion. This single rule, which is not a moral or ethic, harms no one…it helps us all…all of us round the world and allows us to tolerate the rich and various differences that make for a complex and therefore fascinating world…what is different is not then Evil…it`s just not what YOU believe…But who can refuse the Rule and its benefits to all? And the basis of the Rule is mutual tolerance…and that`s our best hope…far more so than that all people will become of one religion..for even then they fight and kill over mindbending subtleties. A Muslim can easily extend tolerance, if tolerance is what SHE wants.
>
>Reason is as close to the divine as we can ever hope to get…here on earth. "Faith" takes us in the other direction..straight to Hell. Sidhuri`s advice to Gilgamesh is of the best kind there can be..it makes SENSE. It is plain, not fantastical…it can be attained without self-mortification, flagellation, ritual etc and getting there benefits all and hurts no one.
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>Sidhuri makes sense…god never can.

yours Truly

Judas Iscariot



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