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=> first half of response to Paul

first half of response to Paul
Posted by Habibi (Guest) - Saturday, August 28 2004, 20:01:44 (CEST)
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>I never said that I was "for" abortion - only that I'm pro-*choice*.

Doesn't one result in the other? How can one be against abortion, but still claim that there's any benifit in making it a valid choice? There's only one main reason to oppose it, and that's a big one.

xxx What is that big reason? To get you to stop writing such empty-headed bullshit? I said that I am pro-*choice.* I respect another woman’s decision to control a situation that involves her body and life – pregnancy. What about all those embryos that get thrown away during an IVF proceedure? You know, I bet you don’t even know the phases of the menstrual cycle or the basics of pregnancy. Know about the LH spike? Know about implantation? Know what stage a baby has a working heart? Why do premature babies need incubators in order to survive? What stage of development is considered the beginning of life?

>When women don't have the protection or education necessary to *prevent* pregnancy,

After generations of sex-ed, women have all the education they could possibly have, and the "protection" is not only available, but advertised on TV, not only that, but the best "protection" only requires that one not do something.

xxx Let’s use the example of an electrical appliance commercial on TV. Do the ads teach one how to operate, install, or set-up that appliance? Are ads informative in a genuine manner, in general? How many women in this country or the rest of the world really watch that much TV?

xxx I had an internship in one of the poorest regions of this country which also had, besides the highest high school drop out rate, the highest rate of teenage pregnancies. The doctor in charge of the region’s health clinics openly discussed the statistics with me, explaining that so many of the pregnant teens that she saw had no idea how they got pregnant, how their reproductive parts really worked, how conception happens. To top that off, many people are pushing to remove what little sex-ed is available in the school systems here, and few schools really offer a minimum coverage of the topic. Where are the generations of sex-ed? We need to start talking about this to kids as soon as they hit puberty, before they can drop out of high school. I wonder how many girls drop out of high school because they have a baby to take care of, too? We need more open discussion of reproduction in order for kids to learn. There is also the problem of discussing sex to adolescents. If our society makes this subject taboo (basically for religious reasons), how can we expect kids to learn about the subject? They feel embarrassed because of the topic, in most discussions. Even discussing the menstrual cycle is embarrassing for a teenage girl to discuss in a direct manner with her mother.

>Then they ought to have the *right,* the *choice* to terminate the pregnancy.

This really means they have the "right" to dispose of another human being as they wish. If that human being has no transcendant rights, why would the women in question, or anyone for that matter? Your argument is consubstantial with chattel slavery, and the "right" of one human being to own another as property.

xxx So it’s right to ruin the life of a woman who doesn’t want to have a baby, instead. Where are the rights of the woman in your argument? Carrying a baby isn’t exactly like carrying a backpack around. It’s a difficult process for a lot of women.

xxx And if fetuses have so many rights, then infants and babies should be considered completely autonomous little citizens, too - I suppose they can threaten to sue their parents for every reprimand that they get as they grow up, now can’t they? The point I’m making is that babies and children are considered minors for a reason and are not given the full rights of an adult for a reason. It is absolutely ridiculous that you would think that a fetus, which wouldn’t be able to survive outside the womb, deserves more rights than an adult (the woman who carries the fetus).

> And I believe that I said before that abortion is a very difficult situation for women to negotiate.

Strange, but true, abortion mills offer convenient hours, lunch break abortions, etc. because in many cases if a woman doesn't abort at her convenience, she may not abort at all. You'd think that it wouldn't be that way, but it is. That may be because killing your own offspring is an unnatural act, that won't occur in most cases if one has a chance to think about what's really going on.

xxx Strange, but true, most hospitals offer convenient hours, too. What a weird coincidence!

>No one goes out and gets pregnant just because she WANTS to have an abortion.

Some get pregnant because they get careless, because they can always abort any surprises.

xxx They may be “careless” because they don’t understand what it is that they are doing (lack of education). Would you call a person careless if he doesn’t understand how a lawn-mower works and then proceeds to run over his own foot with it? He’s not educated about the lawn mower.

>A woman makes this decision for a good reason, usually: she can't take care of a child and there are few laws that ensure the child adequate care in this society

She doesn't have to take care of the child. Couples are waiting for years, or going overseas to adopt. If you think giving up a child for adoption is hard, remember that you'd end up with no fewer children than if you aborted, and you don't have to live the rest of your life with your conscience eating you alive because, subconsciously, you know you're a murderess.

xxx No. A woman who chooses an abortion is NOT a murderess. She just doesn’t want to act like the incubator for the seed of the man who knocked her up, especially if she ends up having to pay for it for the rest of her life. If you care so much about the fetus, then design a womb-like machine to take care of the fetus, and I’m sure she’d be quite fine giving up a live fetus for you to keep. The problem is that a lot of women in this society who choose to have an abortion do so because even just carrying the fetus would put them in an awful situation. If she is a single mother-to-be and she has no family to help her out, who’s going to bring home the money for her to eat on those days and even the week or two she can’t work? If she works a minimum wage job, she’s considered disposable, so if she misses a day or two or can’t work at the speed that she used to, then she might get fired. The point I was making before you started all this name-calling is that if the economic hardship that a lot of these women experience was alleviated, then I’m sure that a lot of women would choose not to have an abortion – the hardship of pregnancy would not seem so threatening to those women. Why not invest federal funds into alleviating the situation for working single women instead of “wars”?

>OR the pregnancy threatens her

I wonder if you would accept a law that only allows abortion to save the life of the mother.

xxx No.

>and/or the developing fetus' life.

As opposed to abortion saving the fetus' life?

xxx Say you’re going to have a baby that has a genetic disease or severe birth defect such that it will only be able to survive until birth, and then you, a single mom with no health insurance and barely any pay would have to pay $300,000 in medical care to keep the new-born alive. What’s the sense in carrying that fetus for 9 months, then, if you can’t keep it alive as a newborn? What adoption agency is going to take a child that needs that much medical care, easily?

So, we admit that the fetus is a life, and still want to snuff it out? That's telling.....and these are not your words, ha? Like I said, your neo-Pagan morals are situational and pragmatic.

xxx So is your “morality.” Why aren’t you arguing to make men more responsible in this society. Rape or forced sex is practically culturally sanctioned in the States – rapists, if found guilty, have barely any punishment to negotiate. Did you know that approximately 1 out of every 4 women is raped at some point in their lives in this country? Furthermore, where is your argument to enforce child support laws?



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