The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum

=> simple answers

simple answers
Posted by parhad (Guest) - Monday, August 2 2004, 18:33:31 (CEST)
from - Windows XP - Internet Explorer
Website:
Website title:

Sayfo, Simele and Sanctions

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beth Suryoyo Assyrian (Othuroyo) Forum


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Written by Paul Younan on 02 Aug 2004 17:53:37:

Shlama l'Kulkhon,

Assyrian lives were lost in all three of the big "S"s - Sayfo, Simele and Sanctions. A tragedy has befallen our people no matter the source of the "S", or the religion of the perpetrators of "S." Assyrian Christians have died at the hands of Muslims and Western Christians alike. No matter what I say, the pain to their families, those they left behind, is just as real whether they were killed by a stray cluster bomb, or a Turkish scimiter.

What I'm about to say may upset some people. It is not my intention to do so. It is especially not my intention to insult the memory of those who died, especially the precious children.

I'd like to discuss my cousin Tiglath's request that the Assyrian victims of Sanctions be remembered during Martyr's Day. In order to have a proper discussion, we need to come to an agreement on the definition of "Martyr" and how, if at all, this word applies to each of the three big "S"s.

According to Webster's Dictionary, the definition of Martyr is twofold:

1. One who, by his death, bears witness to the truth of the gospel; one who is put to death for his religion; as, Stephen was the first Christian martyr.

2. Hence, one who sacrifices his life, his station, or what is of great value to him, for the sake of principle, or to sustain a cause.

Obviously, the primary meaning of the word comes from the times when Christians were persecuted for their faith. In this sense, the word is cognate to the Arabic "Shaheed" and the Aramaic~Syriac "Sahda~Sahdo". However, this twofold definition allows room for non-religious persecution to be classified as "martyrdom" as long as - and I stress, the loss was for the sake or a principle or to sustain a cause.

Now back to our analysis of the three "S"s.

(1) Do the victims of Sayfo meet the requirements of "martyrdom" according to the definition of Webster's Dictionary? At any time during those frightful years, right up to and including the very moment when a Turkish or Azeri scimiter was placed on their necks, the people could have chosen to recite the creed which constitutes the acceptance of Islam, and they would have been spared. There are many instances of this very thing happening. In fact, the people were encouraged by their persecutors to do so and save themselves. But the vast majority refused to give up their faith in Christ, and chose the scimiter instead. Therefore I feel that the victims of Sayfo are indeed "Martyrs" according to the first definition given by Webster, and subsequently they should be remembered as Martyrs during Martyr's Day.

(2) Do the victims of Simele meet the requirements of "martyrdom" according to the definition of Webster's Dictionary? According to the second definition given by Webster, a person may be considered a Martyr, even if he is not killed, as long as that person has sacrificed something of great value to him in the name of a principle or to further a cause. The people of Simele were slaughtered by the Iraqi army simply for being part of the same group that the Iraqis feared were collaborating with the British and who were seeking independence. For this reason, these people died for the furtherance of a cause and as such they should be remembered during Martyrs Day.

(3) This brings us to the third and final "S" - Sanctions. This is where I will stop and allow Tiglath and Fred to give any reasons they feel the victims of Sanctions should be remembered, or not, during Martyrs Day.

Iqare,
Paul Younan

...the simple answer is of course they are because for 14 years America held a sword to the children`s necks and CUT in an attempt to force the parents to go against their core beliefs that the Iraqi cause was a just one and the Sanctions imposed on them most unjust.

But it isn`t that simple. I regret not having my books with me...I think you are using a selective or less complex and specific meaning of the word. Martyrdom does indeed happen when you are given choice...I`m afraid I don`t believe ONE story of Christians being forced to give up Christ...sorry...Islam does not seek converts..the only instance for which we have independent corroboration is when the Romans killed all the Jews they could find who would NOT turn Christian...we also know it happened because years later they created their Inquisition to root out "insincere" Jew converts.

I refuse to accept anyhting your priests say on principle...I`m not about to believe grown men who tell children a Jew flew to heaven and we know it happened because five Jews told us so 2000 years ago.

To be a martyr you indeed have to be presented with a choice..merely being killed for your beliefs doesn`t qialify...your cause could be Sexual Liberation and your form of it could include pederasty...and you could get killed for your beliefs...you are not a martyr to Free Sex.

To drive up to a village and kill everyone there is not martyring them..it is murdering them..and not for what they believe..as they all claim none of them DID anything..and as no others were singled out..it was a one shot attempt to intimidate or bring some sense and fear of the Law to people acting lawlessly within a country trying to become one..any country, especially a fledgling one surrounded by enemies who already have a fifth column within would do the same.

The single most telling element in martyrdom is CHOICE..a way out HAS to be offered..and the villagers in Simele were offered no choice..no one wanted to convert them, they wanted to murder them...as no Levies wanted to convert Iraqis, they wanted to kill them for British pay.

I already said I`m not going to believe your priests...as to those who persihed in Turkey..let me remind you that the war was brought to the Turks without them having done a thing to any European nation to deserve it..and as far as Christian OR Jew was concerned..we had the Millet System which gave us more control over our own affaris than we will ever have again...or get in any Democracy...America included...and the Jews were far better protected than the Christians ever protected them.

...None of you mentions what the Turks went through as they died defending their BELIEFS...even though they COULD HAVE capitualted with a European scimitar at their throats...the Turks were ALL martyred then, if you want to play fast and loose with the meaning of hallowed words and turn them to jingoistic use.

Yes indeed...the children...ALL of them, who were killed as a DIRECT policy of Sanctions imposed by a government..another crucial component of the meaning of martyr...a GOVERNMENT policy...not mob action or a one time retaliation...those Iraqi children killed because their parents and country would NOT yield are the only real martyrs around...had the parents agreed to change their beliefs to save their children, Sanctions would have, disappointingly for the boys, come to an end much sooner..or had Saddam allowed America to do as it wished in his country..as it is doing now with NEW puppets.

...The ONLY real and true martyrs we know of for a certainty...most of all becauuse it happened now in FULL VIEW of all the witnesses we need, are the recently murdered Iraqi children...so to be specific and not sloppy...the estimated and we always said it was estimate, 27,000 CHRISTIAN children UNDER five years of age...were indeed martyred in order to FORCE their parents to carry out an AMERCAN OBJECTIVE...to satisfy AMERICAN BELIEFS that Saddam must go...this crime has ALL the elements intact of the MOST rigorous definition of the term Martyr...and I prefer to aim always for the best instead of settling for the shabbiest and easiest cause it`s the fastest way to pity OR GRATNESS.



---------------------


The full topic:



Content-length: 8663
Content-type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded
Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/vnd.ms-excel, applicatio...
Accept-encoding: gzip, deflate
Accept-language: es-mx
Cache-control: no-cache
Connection: Keep-Alive
Cookie: *hidded*
Host: www.insideassyria.com
Referer: http://www.insideassyria.com/rkvsf2/rkvsf_core.php?.1Jmq.
User-agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; MSN 6.1; MSNbMSFT; MSNmes-mx; MSNc00; v5m)



Powered by RedKernel V.S. Forum 1.2.b9