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Paul, Like Rush Limbaugh, you need to lay off of the pain killers. Just because Tiglath hasn't responded yet doesn't mean he got his ass kicked.... Christian. ----------------------- Mary a whore and Jesus a bastard? Author Message Tiglath Posts: 5 Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:03 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now that the title got your attention I'd like to post a message that Paul Younan posted on our forum. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted by Paul Younan (Guest) - Friday, October 15 2004, 17:53:23 (CEST) "...my father I do not know." Sargon made it very clear that he was a bastard and that his mother was a whore, a high-priestess whore. The mother of a bastard is a whore. It is not the bible that calls Sargon's mother a whore....Sargon did it himself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ My response to Paul's post is; Shakkrukin is the Akkadain word for legitimate King. King Sargon (Sharrukin) was a usurper who changed his name to Sharrukin after taking the throne by force. He was a general in the Assyrian army who overthrew the legitimate semi-divine King and took over the reigns of power establishing the Sargonid Dynasty. But in light of the fact that most of the Assyrian Kings were semi-divine - in that they were born of the King and the High Priestess - then it makes sense that a usurper would adopt the name of Sargon(Sharrukin) and spread the story of his mother being a High Priestess of Ishtar and his father being an unknown God, in order to validate his Kingship. What Sargon is trying to show is that he was immaculately conceived from his virgin high semi-divine priestess mother and representative of Ishtar on earth. This very same immaculate conception was well known in the Middle East and adopted by the Jews to explain how Mary who took on Ishtar's traits and conceived the son of God who was born during the Winter Solstice (Dec 21st). Now that you know the truth behind the plagarising of the ancient Mesopotamian myths, epics, religon, culture etc you have a stark choice to make. Either King Sargon and Jesus Christ were both bastards born to whores, OR King Sargon was the antecedent for the immaculate conception and was using the story to gain divinty and secure his kingship which he took by force. Which is it? Back to top Paul Younan Site Admin Posts: 955 Joined: 05 Sep 2003 Location: Chicago, IL USA Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:54 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Khizmie Tiglath, You are jumping all over the place. You need to make up your mind first which biblical story supposedly plagiarized the fake story of Sargon the Bastard. You initially stated that the story of Moses (the legimate child) was plagiarized from the story of Sargon (the bastard.) Now that I conclusively demonstrated that the two stories were completely unrelated, you are trying to switch biblical stories to that of Maryam and Meshikha.....which has even less parallel to the bastard Sargon's story than Moses does. The truth of the matter is that none of your options is valid. You first set up your scenario as if it were a true statement, then you proceed to give us (only) two options, none of which are applicable seeing that your very premise is faulty. The story of the conception of Meshikha has nothing to do with Mesopotamian kings and their high-priestesses doing the nasty and creating "semi-devine" offspring. Meshikha's father is not a king, and his mother certainly isn't a pagan high-priestess. And Meshikha certainly was never set afloat in a river. Sorry. I'm not impressed either by the title or the substance of your post. Try again. _________________ Fk^rwbw 0ml4 Paul Younan Back to top Guest Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:45 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlama all-- You go Paul! Or why don't we present a radical idea of our own: That perhaps when Matthew appeals to the testimony of the prophets for the virigin birth THAT WE BELIEVE HIM! Whaddaya say? Khizimie, you actually will posit that Sargon, who lived 2000 BCE (thereabouts) is the main influence when Matthew himself appeals to Isaiah 7:14? Or are we to believe Isaiah was speaking prophetically about Sargon, a king dead for more than 15 centuries by his time and not the Righteous King who was to come? And please spare me the manure about virign births of Krishna, Buddha and whatever as influences of Messiah's story. My answer to that is simply that Satan loves to counterfeit the truth with examples that look superficially the same in the quest to sow confusion or have man make the wrong choice. Satan, after all, can appear as a being of light. He did this Eden--it worked then and it still works today. Instead, I would rather take the word of the apostle Paul who said that any worship or veneration of other gods is bowing down to demons, and Paul's ancient influences are clear and obvious: Moses and the patriarchs--and Y'shua also of course. Don't mess with my Savior. Back to top Andrew Gabriel Roth Posts: 59 Joined: 06 Sep 2003 Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:51 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anonymous wrote: Shlama all-- You go Paul! Or why don't we present a radical idea of our own: That perhaps when Matthew appeals to the testimony of the prophets for the virigin birth THAT WE BELIEVE HIM! Whaddaya say? Khizimie, you actually will posit that Sargon, who lived 2000 BCE (thereabouts) is the main influence when Matthew himself appeals to Isaiah 7:14? Or are we to believe Isaiah was speaking prophetically about Sargon, a king dead for more than 15 centuries by his time and not the Righteous King who was to come? And please spare me the manure about virign births of Krishna, Buddha and whatever as influences of Messiah's story. My answer to that is simply that Satan loves to counterfeit the truth with examples that look superficially the same in the quest to sow confusion or have man make the wrong choice. Satan, after all, can appear as a being of light. He did this Eden--it worked then and it still works today. Instead, I would rather take the word of the apostle Paul who said that any worship or veneration of other gods is bowing down to demons, and Paul's ancient influences are clear and obvious: Moses and the patriarchs--and Y'shua also of course. Don't mess with my Savior. Peace and blessings Andrew Gabriel Roth _________________ Shlama w'burkate Andrew Gabriel Roth Back to top Tiglath Posts: 5 Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:20 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The entire Judeo-Christian religion is based on ancient Mesopotamian religon, culture and holidays. One myth the Ishtar and Tammuz love story is enough to unhinge your shaky religion. Here's a sum-up of what you will no doubt choose to ignore. 1. Spring Equinox(March 21st) = Resurrection of Ishtar and Tammuz from the netherworld. Sacred Marriage of Ishtar and Tammuz where the semi-divine King representative of the God Ashur/Marduk conducts Heiros Gamos with the virgin High priestess and representative of Ishtar. Christian version Jesus' resurrection from the dead. 2. Summer Solstice(June 21st)=Death of Tammuz (Weeping for the dying vegetation God Tammuz) Jewish version wailing wall. (Ezekial 8:14) Christian version Noosardel (sprinkling water on the path of God) a water festival as well as baptism symbolising new life and rebirth. 3. Sacred marriage of Ishtar and Tammuz (Sumerian signfied time of plowing) was later moved to March 21st in order for the offpsring of Ishtar and Tammuz to be born 9 months later during the birth of Tammuz (Dec 21st.) 4. Winter Solstice(December 21st.) The Birth of Tammuz. Born to the mother, lover, sister and virgin Ishtar. A sacred Tammuz tree is taken from the forest on 21st December and decorated with gold and silver. Christian version Xmas and the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So you see it's actually me that is insulted when plagarists took our ancient myths, epics and culture for their own and then have the nerve to call the immaculately conceived King Sargon a bastard and the son of a whore. My question remains either King Sargon and Jesus are bastards and the sons of whores OR King Sargon and Jesus were both immaculately conceived and born to virgins following in the tradition of the Ishtar Tammuz myth. Back to top Keith Posts: 27 Joined: 05 Sep 2003 Location: Chicago, Illinois Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:45 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, I come across this type of inflammatory rhetoric from time to time since we live in a university town. I don't quite understand what the agenda is of the person doing the insulting. I usually put people like this on psychotropic medicine to kind of cool off their bizarre behavior. Think I could get Tiglath to see me in my office some day. I don't know if "aunty christ" is the same person as Tiglath but at least we know that the religion to which "aunty christ" adheres is much different from the Christian faith. His insulting demeanor adds nothing to this forum and certainly has nothing to do with Peshitta primacy. These two people (if they are two) seem intent on destruction. However, usually, when one person intends on destroying another person the one being destroyed is the accuser himself. Paul, what do you think their primary purpose is here? If it has nothing to with Peshitta primacy I would ask that you allow me to delete their posts. These silly posts which Tiglath have typed reveal a rather shallow academic ability at research. For the record let me elaborate on some important facts. Ishtar was a "goddess" worshipped in Western Asia by the Babylonians, Assyrians, Sumerians, and Akkadians beginning in ~3000 B.C. According to legend she fell in love with the Sumerian King Gilgamesh but he refused to be her consort so she killed his best friend. Are there any Biblical stories to which this reminds you? Me neither. Ishtar's son, Tammuz (that's right Tammuz was her son), is murdered by his own mother because he brings life to earth (each year). Remind you of anything Biblical? Me neither As a result of Tammuz's death everything on earth dies and Ishtar asks her sister, Allatu (goddess of the underworld), to allow him to come back to life. Allatu complies but Tammuz is allowed to return for only half a year, each year. Remind you of the resurrection? Me neither. Tammuz was Ishtar's son, brother, and husband. He was the god of the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers. Sound like Jesus? Me neither People sacrificed animals to her and prayed to her in the temples. This does sound similar to the Jewish faith in their worship of YHWH. Big deal. Let me address some of Tiglath’s posts. He said “The entire Judeo-Christian religion is based on ancient Mesopotamian religion, culture and holidays.” Me-The “entire” Judeo-Christian is based on ancient Mesopotamian religion, culture, and holidays? Come on Tiglath, the entire Jewish faith and the entire Christian faith is based on what the Ancient Mesopotamians believed? You know better than that. Exactly which religion in ancient Mesopotamia spoke in tongues like the original Christians did? Which religion in ancient Mesopotamia practiced worshipping a resurrected God who was crucified on a cross? You know none did. Crucifixion was a Roman (or perhaps a Phoenician or Persian) invention beginning in ~500BC, long after the worship of Ishtar began. Tiglath which ancient Mesopotamians practiced execution by crucifixion? Is this one fact (fact, not myth) enough to unhinge your silly premise? Tiglath continues- One myth the Ishtar and Tammuz love story is enough to unhinge your shaky religion. Here's a sum-up of what you will no doubt choose to ignore. 1. Spring Equinox (March 21st) = Resurrection of Ishtar and Tammuz from the netherworld. Sacred Marriage of Ishtar and Tammuz where the semi-divine King representative of the God Ashur/Marduk conducts Heiros Gamos with the virgin High priestess and representative of Ishtar. Christian version Jesus' resurrection from the dead. Me-The facts surrounding Ishtar and Tammuz are confusing and at times contradictory. As I stated above Tammuz was Ishtar’s brother, son, and husband. Resurrection is a rather unusual choice of a word to describe the facts surrounding Tammuz’ death and rebirth. You will no doubt want to reread paragraph 6 above. What you describe as a “resurrection” apparently occurred every single year. You might want to read Hebrews 10:10-14 which speaks of a single death “once for all” by Jesus. Furthermore Acts 13:34 intimidates that He would never die again, unlike Tammuz. 2. Summer Solstice (June 21st) =Death of Tammuz (Weeping for the dying vegetation God Tammuz) Jewish version wailing wall. (Ezekiel 8:14) Christian version Noosardel (sprinkling water on the path of God) a water festival as well as baptism symbolizing new life and rebirth. Me- You may want to reread the account in Ezekiel a little more closely. God was pointing out to Ezekiel that since the worship of the Creator was replaced by the worship of the cycles of creation (like that which was ascribed to Tammuz) then Ezekiel would see even more detestable things (see Ezekiel 8:6, 13). Let me explain some facts here. The apparent death of all vegetation in the Middle East during the hot dry summer months was explained in mythology as caused by Tammuz’s death and descent into the underworld. During that time his followers would weep and mourn his death, like this lady in Ezekiel 8:14. In the spring Tammuz would emerge victoriously from the underworld and bring with him the life giving rain. 3. Sacred marriage of Ishtar and Tammuz (Sumerian signified time of plowing) was later moved to March 21st in order for the offspring of Ishtar and Tammuz to be born 9 months later during the birth of Tammuz (Dec 21st.) Me- The significance of this escapes me. 4. Winter Solstice (December 21st.) The Birth of Tammuz. Born to the mother, lover, sister and virgin Ishtar. A sacred Tammuz tree is taken from the forest on 21st December and decorated with gold and silver. Christian version Xmas and the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary. Me- I assume Tiglath is trying to relate the idea that Tammuz was born close to December 25. Obviously, Jesus wasn’t born on December 25, the pagan origins of that date are without dispute. I don’t know a single adult Christian who believes that Jesus was born on December 25. This just proves the pagan origins of the original holiday of Christmas. Let me say for my friends out there that I still celebrate December 25 as Christmas not because of it’s pagan origins but because of what the holiday has evolved to become. This is a side issue, not worth discussing. Me still- Tiglath may want to read Jeremiah 10:3 in which Jeremiah clearly states that the worship of a “sacred” tree is “vain”. Paul, do you worship your tree? Neither do I. So you see it's actually me that is insulted when plagiarists took our ancient myths, epics and culture for their own and then have the nerve to call the immaculately conceived King Sargon a bastard and the son of a whore. Me- Did anyone on this forum ever called King Sargon a bastard and the son of a whore prior to your initial inflammatory rhetoric? Anyone? Tiglath, I doubt if anyone had ever called Sargon these names to insult you. This sounds like embellishment. My question remains either King Sargon and Jesus are bastards and the sons of whores OR King Sargon and Jesus were both immaculately conceived and born to virgins following in the tradition of the Ishtar Tammuz myth. Me- There is really no logical evidence that Sargon was conceived by a virgin. There are many more reasons to believe in the virgin birth of Jesus though. As usual I would like to start with facts. Jesus was not “immaculately conceived and born to (a) virgin following the tradition of Ishtar Tammuz myth”. The first mention of a virgin birth predated the Ishtar myth. In Genesis 3:15 we find that the word for “seed” is “zera” and means among other things “semen”. Tiglath, I want you to trust me now, I paid attention in 3rd grade health, so please trust me on this one. Women do not make “semen”. I’m begging you to believe me. If you don’t I’d ask that you check with your wife, if you even have one. OK, since no woman has “sperm” unless it is placed in her then it is impossible for this verse to come true, without divine intervention. The only way a woman would have “seed” would be if it were placed in her. We place this in our wives (some more frequently than others, now I‘m talking about you Paul, you lucky devil) but there is nothing implicit in this verse to assume that any semen in Eve was anyone other than Adam’s. Tiglath can you think of any woman who might fulfill the prophecy of this verse? Let’s see, the person must be a female. She must have seed placed in her which she can call her own; after all it says “"I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel." This “seed” of this woman will be a male (the pronoun “his” is present) and He well “bruise” Satan’s head. Anyone in history Tiglath? Anyone? Sargon? Nope. Hercules? Sorry. Confucius? Good one. Ok, this prophecy predates every single virgin birth whether Sargon, Hercules, or Confucius. As our “Guest” said “My answer to that is simply that Satan loves to counterfeit the truth with examples that look superficially the same in the quest to sow confusion or have man make the wrong choice.” Tiglath, you really should keep in mind how silly it is to believe in the perpetual virginity of this women (Ishtar); after all she was the goddess of sex. She loved sex and engaged in this activity outside of marriage numerous times. Exactly how would you define a whore Tiglath? It seems that Mary either remained a virgin until her death (Paul’s belief) or she remained faithful to her husband until his death (my belief). Either way, Mary was not a whore. Again, what is your definition of a whore? Ishtar “renewed” her virginity yearly by bading in a lake while two musicians play. She’s a virgin in name only. Kind of like John Kerry claiming to be a conservative at times. He can claim anything he wants but facts are a funny thing. You can claim Ishtar is anything you want but facts are just those sticky wickets that get in the way of logic. Darn those facts. How about a “bastard”? My understanding of the definition of the word is that this is a child born out of wedlock. Weren’t Joseph and Mary married at the time of the birth? Here is Webster’s (1913) definition “a child begotten and born out of wedlock; an illegitimate child; one born of an illicit union.” Which one of those definitions applies to Jesus? Was He begotten and born out of wedlock? Sorry. Was Jesus an illegitimate child? Sorry read Luke 2:5. They were married but Joseph had not consummated the marriage. Was Jesus born of an illicit union? Nope. Now go back and ask those same three questions with relation to Sargon. Sorry Tiglath! I would offer this piece of advice. If all you want to do is insult and not engage in serious debate move to Boston, hold another Democratic Convention, and take the platform. However, if you are interested in legitimate answers to these, ages old, questions then change your attitude and engage us in discussion not arguments. Keith Last edited by Keith on Fri Oct 22, 2004 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top Paul Younan Site Admin Posts: 955 Joined: 05 Sep 2003 Location: Chicago, IL USA Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:40 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlama Keith, First and foremost, that was a fantastic reply and I enjoyed reading every bit of it. Please feel free to rip into these guys whenever they need a smacking. However, in the spirit of the "Open Forum", let's not delete any posts. Meshikha dealt with this type of venomous attack, and warned us our fate would be no different. I am no longer a proponent of moderated forums. We need to speak freely. They will sink or swim on their own. And right now Tiglath is in need of a tube. First he tried to accuse the biblical authors of plagiarizing the story of Sargon in Moses, but that was obviously a flop. Now he's tried to equate any minute aspect of the circumstances surrounding the birth of Meshikha to Sargon, which is even less relevant....if that's at all possible. It should be mentioned that Tiglath is actually a relative of mine. He and my deceased Father are 1st cousins. He's in Australia, and we've met once. Tiglath and I have had numerous online debates on the very topic at hand, and it was at my invitation that he and Farid Parhad (a.k.a. "Aunty Christ") come here and get slapped silly. Thanks for fulfilling that promise. _________________ Fk^rwbw 0ml4 Paul Younan Back to top -------------------------------------- ................ Paul Younan wrote: >Tiglath posted and recieved several replies from several different individuals. That he got his ass kicked wasn't the point - at least he was able to draw some people into discussion. > >Can I help it if you can't put a coherent thought together? I hoped you would come on board and at least attempt to engage people in a somewhat learned and thought-provoking manner. That you rushed in like a bull in a fine china store isn't my fault. One of my posters said it the best: > >"The best thing we should do is not to entertain "it" and deprive "it" from what "it" is craving for in this forum. There is no need to give answers to those people who asked questions but are not interested in hearing the answers given." > >You have to remember Farid, that unlike your own forum, these are people who are accustomed to having intelligent discussions. Give it another try without trying so hard this time to look like a dummy, if there were any effort involved on your part. Perhaps someone will find you interesting enough to answer this time. > >-Paul --------------------- |
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