The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum
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Orignal Sources Author Message Tiglath Posts: 5 Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:32 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi people, With my first post I'd like to ask some questions about this very site itself. From my limited understanding I see that the Peshitta website is dedicated to determining the true sources of the "Word of God." And it's obvious that you guys have spent your entire lifetimes trying to determine what the truer and more accurate sources for these "holy" books are. Well search no longer. It is now common knowledge that the that the Sumerian antecedent of Noah is none other than Napishtim from the Epic of Gilgamesh who collected two animals of every kind and built an ark. Just as the Babylonian King Hammurabi's code of laws preceded Moses's abridged Ten commandments. Just as the Akkadian poem, I Will Praise the Lord of Wisdom (Ludlul bel nemeqi) which deals with the problem of the righteous sufferer, was written before the Book of Job. Let's not forget the ancient Sumerian love poems written to commemorate the sacred marriage of the Godess Ishtar and God Tammuz appears to have been plagarised in the "Song of Solomon." As well as this it was the Akkadian King Sargon who was found floating down a river as a babe years before Moses. It was also the God Enki(Ea) who came down and forced people to speak in tongues way before the Jewish god Yawheh came down and stopped the tower of Babel. Now before you use that Old Testament/New testament excuse consider the fact that during the Spring Equinox the ancient Assyrians celebrated the resurrection of the Goddess Ishtar and the God Tammuz who returned from the netherworld and signalled the coming of Spring. During this Ishtar (holiday) the Assyrian king, considered the son of a god, would conduct heiros gamos with the high priestess and representative of the Goddess Ishtar. Now 9 months later when the priestess gave birth during the Winter Solstice (21st Dec) the people would go out into the forest and collect a Tammuz tree symbolising the birht of the child. Ishtar, the mother, lover and sister of Tammuz the dying and resurrected god are the antecedents for Jesus and Mary, also known as a virgin. This explains why during Jesus's entry into Jerusalem the crowd follwed in the tradition of Tammuz and used the evergreen Palm Tree to welcome their king and son of god. Now these facts along with the knowledge that only a fraction of the ancient Mesopotamian cuneiform tablets have been discovered leads to the inevitable conclusion that the true source of the Peshitta is none other than the ancient Mesopotamian Epics, poems and myths. Isn't it about time we started using this forum to return to the true sources of the Peshitta? Back to top bar_khela Posts: 61 Joined: 05 Sep 2003 Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:22 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tiglath, So you're implying religious borrowing? While I understand your viewpoint (since Orientialists often accuse the Qu'ran of Biblical plagurism), I am going to say to you what I'd say to them. "And for every nation there is a messenger." (10:47) "And there is not a people but a warner has gone among them." (35:24) The main theme of the theory of borrowing is as follows: If a later text shows similarities to an older (i.e.earler) text(s) or tradition(s) or is similar to what is known (or thought to be known) before, then the later text has borrowed/plagiarized/copied/utilized the 'previously known'. Before your ancestors committed themselves to their gods, they had belief in one God. The God of Abraham, Ishmael, and Issac. The God of all the worlds. You received wisdom just like the Jews and Christians from the same God. However, your people corrupted the Message years later. Remember Jonah and the warnings he gave to your people? He is the most famous prophet who preached in your land. Do you remember the fall of your empire once your ancestors disobeyed? _________________ Take from life what is pure and from living what is sufficient Back to top Tiglath Posts: 5 Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:51 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tiglath, So you're implying religious borrowing? >>>It's not just religous borrowing it's outright plagarism. If I were to take your writings and claim them for my very own - adding slight character chnages to protect the ignroant - you'd use the full force of the law to have me arrested for breah of copyright. Yet we still continue to act as though the "Jewish" "holy" book is original for Ashur's sake. While I understand your viewpoint (since Orientialists often accuse the Qu'ran of Biblical plagurism), I am going to say to you what I'd say to them. >>>The Qu'ran was started by the Nestorian church to counteract the Zoroastrian religion of the Perisn Empire who ruled Beth Nahrain at the time. The Qu'ran is based on the Bible which are based on the ancient Assyrian myths, epics and poems. However the good thing about the Qu'ran is that it doesn't bite the hand that feeds it unlike the Judeo-Christian Old and New Testaments which call our women whores of Babylon and demands that we dashthe heads of our children on rocks to appease Yawheh. (See Psalm 137:8-9) Meanwhile the Qu'ran, although not original, actually considers the Christians and the Jews people of the book and deservant of protection. The Prophet Muhammad himself issued an edict protecting the Nestorians. This may explain why the majority of the Nestorians who had churches even in Saudi Arabia converted on masse to the new religion which was not so anti-Assyrian towards their ancestors. "And for every nation there is a messenger." (10:47) "And there is not a people but a warner has gone among them." (35:24) The main theme of the theory of borrowing is as follows: If a later text shows similarities to an older (i.e.earler) text(s) or tradition(s) or is similar to what is known (or thought to be known) before, then the later text has borrowed/plagiarized/copied/utilized the 'previously known'. Before your ancestors committed themselves to their gods, they had belief in one God. The God of Abraham, Ishmael, and Issac. The God of all the worlds. >>>I'm sorry but that's not true. Abraham has never been our prophet and his god is not our God. Besides stating the obvious that Abraham was not from Ur but claimed descendency from the city just like other royal Sumerian Kings would do to display his lineage. And even if he had been he would have no doubt been kicked out of there because of the incest with his sister/wife Sara that he openly admits to the Pharoah of Egypt. No. The ancient Assyrians believed in their own God, Ashur a monotheistic god but with different representations. He could manifest himself as the Goddess of love ands war Ishtar, as Adad the god of thunder, as Shamash the Sun-God from which Christians got their symbol of the cross or as Sin, the moon God, the symbol where Muslims got their crescent from. You received wisdom just like the Jews and Christians from the same God. However, your people corrupted the Message years later. >>>Hang on mate.....your Qu'ran borrowed from the Bible which in turn borrowed from the ancient Assyrian myths, epics and poems. Do you really think you should be accusing anyone of corruption? Remember Jonah and the warnings he gave to your people? He is the most famous prophet who preached in your land. >>>Jonah was a fairy tale, most likely also stolen from our ancient myths and then rejigged to make the Assyrians look like the bad-guys. It's like those late night shopping commercials where they declare "It's so easy even a monkey can use it!" Well the story of Jonah and the whale was an abject lesson used by Yawheh to teach his chosen ones not to turn away from him. The writer/plagariser who wrote jonah most likely wanted to deliver the message to the Jews that, "Our Yawheh is so good even the cruel Assyrians adopted it." Only problem is that this fairy tale became true over 800 years later. Do you remember the fall of your empire once your ancestors disobeyed? >>>That was our finest period. We created civilisation while the Anglo-Saxons were living in trees and eating bugs off each others' backs. Yet our Empire has been revived as the Arab Empire which during the 14th century boasted electrical street lighting and a bath on each corner while the Europeans were dying of the plague and burining witches at the stake. Back to top Guest Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:42 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>It's not just religous borrowing it's outright plagarism. If I were to take your writings and claim them for my very own - adding slight character chnages to protect the ignroant - you'd use the full force of the law to have me arrested for breah of copyright. Yet we still continue to act as though the "Jewish" "holy" book is original for Ashur's sake. I cannot defend the Bible because I have little serious knowledge of it. I'll leave that to Paul. >>>The Qu'ran was started by the Nestorian church to counteract the Zoroastrian religion of the Perisn Empire who ruled Beth Nahrain at the time. Interesting assertion. The Qu'ran denies divinity of Jesus. Moreover, it denies the trinity. Of course, this is a major doctrine within both Western and Eastern churches. Had the Church of the East wrote the Qu'ran, we would see reminants of their own dogma, such as: -Belief in the Bible being the only and last revelation of God with Jesus(P) being the revelation in person. -Belief in God becoming man. -Belief in God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. However, we see the following in the Qu'ran: "Say or Proclaim: Allah is Ahad (one, unique, only). Allah is as-Samad (Absolute, independent, eternal, on whom every one and every thing depends). He is not begotten, and does not beget And there is none co-equal unto him (in whatever manner)." Your argument is like that of "The Ten Wise Jews" who were said to compose the Qu'ran. C'mon buddy. http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBwise.html The Prophet Muhammad himself issued an edict protecting the Nestorians. This may explain why the majority of the Nestorians who had churches even in Saudi Arabia converted on masse to the new religion which was not so anti-Assyrian towards their ancestors. Could be. No. The ancient Assyrians believed in their own God, Ashur a monotheistic god but with different representations. He could manifest himself as the Goddess of love ands war Ishtar, as Adad the god of thunder, as Shamash the Sun-God from which Christians got their symbol of the cross or as Sin, the moon God, the symbol where Muslims got their crescent from. That is Allah, your Lord. There is no god but Him, the Creator of everything. So worship Him. He is responsible for everything. (6:102) >>>Hang on mate.....your Qu'ran borrowed from the Bible which in turn borrowed from the ancient Assyrian myths, epics and poems. Do you really think you should be accusing anyone of corruption? http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBbible.html >>>Jonah was a fairy tale, most likely also stolen from our ancient myths and then rejigged to make the Assyrians look like the bad-guys. It's like those late night shopping commercials where they declare "It's so easy even a monkey can use it!" Well the story of Jonah and the whale was an abject lesson used by Yawheh to teach his chosen ones not to turn away from him. The writer/plagariser who wrote jonah most likely wanted to deliver the message to the Jews that, "Our Yawheh is so good even the cruel Assyrians adopted it." Only problem is that this fairy tale became true over 800 years later. The Assyrians repented from a time, accepting the Message. As time passed, they went back to their old ways. Consequently:http://www.livius.org/ne-nn/nineveh/nineveh01.html Hath not the story reached them of those before them?- the People of Nuh, and 'Ad, and Thamud; the People of Ibrahim, the men of Madyan, and the cities overthrown. To them came their messengers with clear signs. It is not Allah Who wrongs them, but they wrong their own souls.” (Surat at-Tawba: 70) Yet our Empire has been revived as the Arab Empire which during the 14th century boasted electrical street lighting and a bath on each corner while the Europeans were dying of the plague and burining witches at the stake. The only thing the Assyrians contributed to the Islamic empire was the translation of Greek texts, which consequently led to electrical street lighting and baths on each corner. Therefore, the Assyrians are an inseparable part of the Islamic empire, but not the cause of it nor the bulk of it. Nevertheless, the Islamic empire is indebted to the Assyrian Church of the East. Back to top Guest Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:42 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>It's not just religous borrowing it's outright plagarism. If I were to take your writings and claim them for my very own - adding slight character chnages to protect the ignroant - you'd use the full force of the law to have me arrested for breah of copyright. Yet we still continue to act as though the "Jewish" "holy" book is original for Ashur's sake. I cannot defend the Bible because I have little serious knowledge of it. I'll leave that to Paul. >>>The Qu'ran was started by the Nestorian church to counteract the Zoroastrian religion of the Perisn Empire who ruled Beth Nahrain at the time. Interesting assertion. The Qu'ran denies divinity of Jesus. Moreover, it denies the trinity. Of course, this is a major doctrine within both Western and Eastern churches. Had the Church of the East wrote the Qu'ran, we would see reminants of their own dogma, such as: -Belief in the Bible being the only and last revelation of God with Jesus(P) being the revelation in person. -Belief in God becoming man. -Belief in God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. However, we see the following in the Qu'ran: "Say or Proclaim: Allah is Ahad (one, unique, only). Allah is as-Samad (Absolute, independent, eternal, on whom every one and every thing depends). He is not begotten, and does not beget And there is none co-equal unto him (in whatever manner)." Your argument is like that of "The Ten Wise Jews" who were said to compose the Qu'ran. C'mon buddy. http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBwise.html The Prophet Muhammad himself issued an edict protecting the Nestorians. This may explain why the majority of the Nestorians who had churches even in Saudi Arabia converted on masse to the new religion which was not so anti-Assyrian towards their ancestors. Could be. No. The ancient Assyrians believed in their own God, Ashur a monotheistic god but with different representations. He could manifest himself as the Goddess of love ands war Ishtar, as Adad the god of thunder, as Shamash the Sun-God from which Christians got their symbol of the cross or as Sin, the moon God, the symbol where Muslims got their crescent from. That is Allah, your Lord. There is no god but Him, the Creator of everything. So worship Him. He is responsible for everything. (6:102) >>>Hang on mate.....your Qu'ran borrowed from the Bible which in turn borrowed from the ancient Assyrian myths, epics and poems. Do you really think you should be accusing anyone of corruption? http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBbible.html >>>Jonah was a fairy tale, most likely also stolen from our ancient myths and then rejigged to make the Assyrians look like the bad-guys. It's like those late night shopping commercials where they declare "It's so easy even a monkey can use it!" Well the story of Jonah and the whale was an abject lesson used by Yawheh to teach his chosen ones not to turn away from him. The writer/plagariser who wrote jonah most likely wanted to deliver the message to the Jews that, "Our Yawheh is so good even the cruel Assyrians adopted it." Only problem is that this fairy tale became true over 800 years later. The Assyrians repented from a time, accepting the Message. As time passed, they went back to their old ways. Consequently:http://www.livius.org/ne-nn/nineveh/nineveh01.html Hath not the story reached them of those before them?- the People of Nuh, and 'Ad, and Thamud; the People of Ibrahim, the men of Madyan, and the cities overthrown. To them came their messengers with clear signs. It is not Allah Who wrongs them, but they wrong their own souls.” (Surat at-Tawba: 70) Yet our Empire has been revived as the Arab Empire which during the 14th century boasted electrical street lighting and a bath on each corner while the Europeans were dying of the plague and burining witches at the stake. The only thing the Assyrians contributed to the Islamic empire was the translation of Greek texts, which consequently led to electrical street lighting and baths on each corner. Therefore, the Assyrians are an inseparable part of the Islamic empire, but not the cause of it nor the bulk of it. Nevertheless, the Islamic empire is indebted to the Assyrian Church of the East. ========================================================= Paul Younan wrote: >Tiglath posted and recieved several replies from several different individuals. That he got his ass kicked wasn't the point - at least he was able to draw some people into discussion. > >Can I help it if you can't put a coherent thought together? I hoped you would come on board and at least attempt to engage people in a somewhat learned and thought-provoking manner. That you rushed in like a bull in a fine china store isn't my fault. One of my posters said it the best: > >"The best thing we should do is not to entertain "it" and deprive "it" from what "it" is craving for in this forum. There is no need to give answers to those people who asked questions but are not interested in hearing the answers given." > >You have to remember Farid, that unlike your own forum, these are people who are accustomed to having intelligent discussions. Give it another try without trying so hard this time to look like a dummy, if there were any effort involved on your part. Perhaps someone will find you interesting enough to answer this time. > >-Paul --------------------- |
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