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=> WM the DM ventures out....

WM the DM ventures out....
Posted by pancho (Guest) - Sunday, March 6 2005, 15:24:03 (CET)
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Re: This is ridiculous

Posted By: wm warda (208.187.134.189)
Date: Sunday, 6 March 2005, at 1:58 a.m.

In Response To: Re: This is ridiculous (Alfred Alkhas)

I am not a christian apologist

...but he`s going to act like one anyway...

but the crusades are always brought up to justify the Islamic terror.

...no they are not. They are brought up as an instance of the wars first brought to Muslim lands by crafty Christians hiding behind Christ..and how they haven`t stopped to this day. What you call "terror" has been inflicted by the West on Islam far more than the other way around...let`s not forget the Terror visited on Jews by Christians which led to the Holocaust and how Western Christianity decided to make up for their own Terror, by imposing the state of Israel on Palestinme and setting Jews and Arabs to killing each other...while Europe snickered and washed its hand and made a bundle selling weapons...it has been this injustice and violence brought to Muslims that finally led them to rebel and fight back and since when is fighting back "terror"?

It is true that the Crusaders were barbaric but that had very little to do with christianity and more to do with how they had learned to behave when they were pagans.

...you could say the same by way of mitigating Muslim behavior...but of course you won`t. Had you been born Muslim you`d be making the same noise as a Muslim..only beyond these categories and your personal hatreds is there any chance at truth or peace.

In condemning the Crusades we are forgetting that before the arrival of the Crusaders moslems had invaded several christian countries in the Middle East and had gone into Europe as far as Spain specifically to impose the Moslem religion on the infidels and expand their religious domain.


...and you are neglecting to mention that before even that, the Eastern Roman Empire was trying very hard to defeat and murder all the Arabs, Christians and Jews it could and that it was only by going out to meet the marauding and murderous Christians that Islam stood a chance of securing itself as it and every other religion and People have every right to do..and thank Ashur they DID go into Europe because they were able to save them from utter barbarism and ignorance...the Islamic Moorish kingdom of Grenada was the shining light of Europe as was the Calipahte of Baghdad the most magnificent civilization of its day.

Why is it that we condemn the crusaders for going to war for religious reasons and dominating lands that were not theirs but we do not judge Islam by the same standard?

...because the Crusaders went to steal..plain and simple...they improved nothing during their brief reign over Jerusalem..they butchered all the Jews and Muslims they found and they even killed all the Christians of Byzantium they could till the streets ran with Christian blood shed by fellow Christians...and they ruled over those Christian lands as brutally and murderously as they did for a few brief years over Jerusalem....this is in great contrast to the cutlure and civilization of Moorish Spain from which all of Europe and the New World benefitted...silly boy.

The Saljuk Turks carrying the flag of Islam invaded Anatolia in the 11th century and it was their wars against the Byzantine empire which brought the crusaders to the Middle East.

...no it was not. The Byzantine Empire attacked Christians as readily as Jews and Arabs...it was the Eastern Romans who`d been trying to conquer those lands even before Mushammad but it was Islam that was able to marshall Arab forces effectively in time to beat the crap out of the Christians and kick them out of Asia for good... and then drive across north Africa up into barbaric Europe and civilize those louts. And it was that most Christian King, Ferdinand, who took Spain back from the Moors and immediately threw the Jews out and sent them wandering again...and after that Spain decayed while little Holland, who acepted the Jews, prospered as never before. What is WRONG with you people??? How can you so hate the very people and religion that gave your your own damn "Savior"? Fucking cannibals!

Before the arrival of the crusaders Matthew of Edessa describes the grim situation of the christians in Anatolia because of turks attacks.

...Christians everywhere brought "grim situations" wherever they took Christ..they murdered the people of the Western Hemisphere...HALF THE WORLD...in the name of the Prince of Peace. You are now acting the Christian apologist, which is all you boys are, by quoting from dubious Christian sources...I suppose you also believe Ireland was converted to Christ because one man, also on foot, chased the snakes out???

"Toward the beginning of year 1079-80 famine desolated ... the lands of the worshippers of the cross, already ravaged by the ferocious and sanguinary Turkish hordes. Not one province remained protected from their devastation. Everywhere the Christians had been delivered to the sword or into bondage, interrupting thus the cultivation of the fields, so that bread was lacking. The farmers and workers had been massacred or led off into slavery, and famine extended its rigors to all places. Many provinces were depopulated; the Oriental [christian] nation no longer existed, and land of the Greeks was in ruins."

...the Christians have killed and devastated more Christians and Christian countries than ANYONE at any time ANYWHERE. Wars happened between all peoples and all people were bloody...but no one was so thoroughly convinced they had god`s mandate to kill and plunder in his name than Christians.and they got that from their parents the Hebrews who no sooner found that bloody desert god than they turned their swords into the bellies of their own people`s wives...for HIM! And they`ve been doing it since. You`re just the "nice" cousin of the ruthless Mafia famiglia...but that doesn`t change your bloodline.

It was against such background that Emperor Alexius asked for military help from the European nations. Pope Urban II used the occasion to demand a military expedition to evict the Moslem from the Palestine.

...bullshit. The Crusaders, on the third Crusade, attacked and murdered the Byzantines, the very people of Alexius.... raped and slaughtered their fellow Christians and tried to rule them...That`s your church nonsense...Europe was being rocked by wars and attacks of Christian against Christian..it was bad for business and didn`t look good in the advertisements...Europe`s penchant for disenfranchising all males except the firstborn meant a horde of landless pissed off sons, with just enough inheritance to buy armor and a sword, who had no recourse but to hire out or go kill someone on their own initiative...the pope decided it would be better for them to go kill elsewhere and the excuse of "getting back" what was "theirs" was also too much for him to resist...a great cover-up if there ever was one...these were thugs pure and simple as can be seen by what they did as they marched across Europe and how feared and hated they were when Christian cities everywhere closed their gates to them..they were marauding cutthroats who killed every Jew in their path and even turned their lust and greed against wealthy Byzantium..a CHRISTIAN nation...attacking and conquering and ruling IT instead of Palestine because it was the richer prize. Or did they do that for Christ as well?

...When the Crusaders took Jerusalem they killed every Muslim and Jew man, woman and child...as they still do...but when they were driven out by Khalid Ibn Walid, the Sword of Islam, there was no payback...and even though the Christian Patriarch ran, because he knew what HE would do...Khalid called him back as his honored guest and drove the city streets with him to show him that it was safe and that all were welcome back to practise freely their religions...and the Ottoman Turks were the ONLY people and empire in modern history to attempt the almost impossible: to allow all three sisters from hell and their followers to live side by side, neither expelling nor murdering Christian or Jew..which was the only way Christian Europe achieved "peace"...by killing every Jew and Muslim they could get their hands on..and when they succeeded and Europe was ALL Christian..they turned their swords on each other and found specious arguments to murder fellow Christians...this is Christian REAL history..not your Church fairytales...read em and weep...and be ashamed of yourselves for continuing these lies and murderous wars against first the Jews and now the Muslims...the lying organ has grown so large in you that the part that should feel shame has been squeezed out.

Anyone who has read the Koran can understands how extremist can define its passages so literarily and obey its command because they are promissed great reward for doing so. It is credit to most Moslems who do not behave as the extremists do but the small minority often prevails because it is ready and willing to terrorize its own people into submission. Such fanaticism is rare among christians of today.

..more bullshit. The infidels of the Koran are NOT Christians or Jews..those are the People of the Book and are held in great respect..as is Jesus and Moses...and you all know what you think of Muhammad. The Koran speaks of Pagans as Infidels..that is, people who do NOT uphold the bible. This is more crafty lying on your part and that of the Church that HAS no apology for its behavior...so they found you...who is only a poor excuse.

...Christians are the greatest fanatics ever...they are in Iraq fanaticizing to death Muslim children..as they did only a few brief decades ago to millions of Jewish people...innocent all. What is it with you people...do you think the rest of us don`t have eyes or ears...do you think because you blithely dismiss all your crimes that the rest of the world doesn`t see you for what you are? Just where in the world did you EVER win any converts...except by force and murder and kidnapping people`s children?

Here is what happened to christians of Edessa at the last war between the crusaders and the Saljuk Turks in Edessa in September 27, 1146.

Turkish soldiers under the leadership of Mohammed son of Zangi who had changed his name to Nro-al-dean [ the light of religion (Islam)] were in the hills getting ready to attack the city. Joscelyn the crusader ordered his troops to burn the houses and the stores before leaving. Michael the Syrian later wrote:

“A great number of Edessan men, women, children, and horses caught in terror, rushed out of the city seeking protection from the Frankish forces. The Turks chased the disorganized crowd of soldiers [and civilians] and slaughtered them mercilessly.”

Killing continued inside the city. According to some accounts thirty thousand ordinary people were killed and sixteen thousand women, youths and children were taken into slavery, stripped of their clothes, barefoot, their hands were bound and were forced to run alongside the galloping horses of their captors. Those who could not keep up were injured by the spears or arrows and left behind to be eaten by the wild animals.* Priests were killed as soon as they were captured. Others like the Archbishop of the Armenians were sold in Aleppo. Basil bar Shumana narrowly made his escape to Samosata.

...this is no different from what Christians did to Muslims AND TO CHRISTIANS...go get a life already.

during world war one the Turks, Persians and Kurds usually stripped christian women off their cloth and paraded them naked in public. In one rare photo I have seen naked women with their hands bound were forced to run behind the galloping horses toward their death jus as Michael is describing which indicates not much had changed during the time between the 12th century and the 20th century. Historically Moslems have been willing to tolerate chrisitans collectively as long as they can treat them as serfs and be at their mercy. Any time they ask for any human dignity they are punished into submission because they are considered creatures of a lesser God. It is true that not all moslems are like that but that is how it has been for the last 14 centuries.

...you forget to mention that the Turks did nothing to deserve being declared war upon by all the Western Powers..nothing more than have the oil they still want...what about the Turks killed by the Christians, who started that war? Have you any idea what American soldiers did to Vietnamese women and girls..and boys too? Have you ever read a book?

What happened to the christians of Turkey and northwest Iran was barbaric by any standard.
Jean Djoumma, a Chaldean Assyrian who had returned to Khosrawa when it was safe to do so in a letter to Abbe Decroo in Tauriz dated May 3, 1919 wrote:

"You know all the horrors suffered by our Christians during the massacres. Our women were burned alive, others were sawn to pieces, men, women and children were crucified or hacked to death. So great indeed were the horrors that the barbarous Turks were astonished to find at Urmia's Moslems were more barbarous than themselves, Bishop Thomas Audo, a French missionary and Mar Dinkha were led naked through the streets of Urmia before being martyred. My heart is torn, and I cannot tell you all the cruelties and the different tortures invented by the moslems for our thousands of martyrs. . . ." (Naayem)

How can anyone justify this for any reason?

..the same way you justify all the horrors Christians have brought to the world and are still bringing to it..and planning to bring more...by merely overlooking the instances that show YOUR religion in a negative light...and deciding that your side MUST be right. A murderer is a murderer..makes no difference the religion...but you should keep this in mind, no one...NO ONE, has killed and tortured and raped and stripped and maimed and fucked more Christians than OTHER Christians...look THAT up in your Christian Funk and Wagnall`s!!!



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