The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum

=> answer to firas...

Posted by beezelbub (Guest) - Tuesday, August 2 2005, 9:18:38 (CEST)
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Man! I just got home and answered your first post and while I was answering this one, I noticed an email pop up that you replied already! You are fast.

...Maybe YOU are slow.

> the name is Farid...you and I seem to be going in opposite directions where our names are concerned...but never mind.

I don't see what this has to do with the subject. Stick to the topic please.

...I am...when you use another name for me...you go off topic...it's good to know who you're dealing with...a good place to start.

If you want to ask about my nickname,, feel free to do so.

..okay, I will...you told me once that you were thinking about changing your name to Jones, I believe it was. I thought that was odd...I mean you all complain about how Saddam would force you to change your names...as a way of Arabizing you or some such silly thing...and I asked you what you would think of someone who changes his name when there is NO gun to his head...versus someone who changes it because there is a gun pointing at his head...it seems to me the one changing his name on his own has very little cause to fault anyone who agrees to change it BECAUSE there is a gun pointed at him...but, like I said, never mind...let's stick to the topic.

This however was not the suject. I will be happy to elaborate on that point. Do not jump to conclusions.

...why not...you concluded, based on what no one knows, that America is in the habit of helping Darkies get their "indigenous" lands back...it seems to me that was a far worse miscalculation...no?

>democracy MEANS an iron hand by the majority OR the stronger minority who set the rules and define the terms

As I mentioned in my previous post, you have a valid point. This is not new and many Assyrians are well aware of the shortfalls of democracy.

..if they are then they aren't the ones who've been posting here...this has hardly been a good example of a forum in a democracy.

What you are talking about however, is democracy in the purest sense .

...not at all...that was Greece and IT wasn't a democracy...because not all people IN Greece were allowed to participate. They carefully defined their democracy so it would exclude women and slaves as well as the poor men..I'm talking about the reality of democracy as she is known...what business have I with ideal states?

Ofcourse no one wants that. Many Assyrian activists have stated that on numerous occasions.

...I haven't read of a single one...and I've had more "time" than you've had to read....

Luckily, the world is not black and white and there are many types of democracy,

...but they vary not all in their basic principle, which is, first and foremost, MAJORITY RULE That is ONE thing that can't vary, or it is NO democracy...and any concessions the majority gives a minority are determined also by the MAJORITY. So any and all minorities are dependent on the goodwill of the majority...in Iraq's case, the Shiia...this is NOT an "ideal" statement...it is a fact...explain how this is NOT the case in Iraq?

some being very different that the Greek version you speak of.

...I gave that as an example of the ONLY true democracy ever...a place where the citizens were also the politicians...each one being expected to share in DIRECT governance and not through representatives...which makes it a republic...as Rome was...and every other country that had a democratic FORM of government since then...which simply and purely means MAJORITY RULE...that isn't an "ideal"...it's a hard cold fact. Look it up.

I am not saying that the type of democracy being considered in Iraq will necessarily benefit us, but there is a chance that the lives of Assyrians can improve by applying democracy at various levels of governance, including the local level.

...you took a tremendous risk then...not you directly but you PLACED the Christians in Iraq in a terrible position...THEY never asked to be liberated...they were doing fine and well...except for those muddleheaded ones who preached sedition...which is anytime you claim the ruling government of the country to be not legitimate...that is sedition and it is a criminal act anywhere in the world...even in America...if you do it during wartime it means summary execution...no questions asked and no trial...this demand was made by the rest of you who are out of harm's way and playing "nation".

...you cannot give a SINGLE instance when local democracy would be any different...the principle is the same...Christians will be surrounded by Muslims everywhere...they can vote for ONLY Christian candidates if they want...in which case their candidates will lose every time for obvious reasons...can you imagine a single Muslim voting for a Christian candidate or issue after this war?

The constitutional democracy being proposed, safeguards the rights of minorities to teach their language, practice their beliefs, and administer areas where they make up a substantial portion of the population.

..it does nothing of the kind and is NO constitution at all...it is a document drawn up by puppets...people the Iraqis don't even KNOW and have never seen...either brought to Iraq from exile by America...or in hiding in fear for their lives...when America leaves there will be a bloodbath...any hopes you have for this constituion are as illusory as the rest of your "agenda".

...like I said...you would prefer to beg in SOORETH than apply for a job in Arabic. As far as belief goes we saw clearly enough that Christians are free to attend their churches...the churches in the villages which Saddam destroyed were the places with the "schools" teaching sedition...which is what they were calling their "indigenous rights to Iraq"...No Muslim in Iraq has anything against Assyrians and certainly not against Christians...for 1300 years since the Conquest there have been churches in Iraq and Christians attending them...a church cannot teach sedition anywhere...not in America either.

...If they try to preach sedition under this "democracy", see how fast they get the same prison terms or worse.

..the ONLY rights you will ever be entitled to are your rights as citizens of Iraq...the Kurds have been refusing to see themselves as such and the government of Iraq has been killing them for years...it has nothing to do with religion and certainly NOTHING to do with being Assyrian...it has EVERYTHING to do with behavior...you might as well have every thief in America cry that he is being persecuted for his RELIGION when he's arrested for stealing.

We have such an area in the Nineveh plains (slightly north of Ashur and up to the mountains directly north of Ninveh).

...you have no such thing. The Seminole Indians have a TREATY signed by Congress and the president of the United States promising them Florida, which no one disputes was their's to begin with...do you think they have much of a chance of getting it?

...In international law and all cases such as this...possession is 100% of the Law...ask the Israelis.

So, ideally, the same constitution that allows kurds who make up 16% of the Iraqi population to govern areas where they are a majority, Assyrians should have the same rights where they are the majority.

..you forget one little detail...no one GAVE or is giving the Kurds ANYTHING. The constitution doesn't "allow" them anything...they PUT it there!!! If it were up to the Shiia majority AND the Sunni minority, the Kurds would be driven out of Iraq entirely...the Kurds got what they have by TAKING it...as America and Britain got what they have and everyone else got what THEY have....the Kurds EARNED the land they now hold...you and I don't like the way they did it...but it's the time-honored way these things are done...you people have no such power...you hold nothing...you can enforce nothing...once again and before you get off topic, no one GAVE the Kurds the lands they hold today...while you are all ASKING to be given something...that is a big difference....no?

This is the theory. Implimentation is a whole other issue.

...there has to be a connection between theory and the CHANCE for implementation...your theory rests once again...as it did the last time around, on the whacky notion that anyone is going to give you anything because YOU say it's your's...a theory has to have some basis in probability...not only is your wish a very poor "theory" but you have concrete evidence all around you, including your own, that this has NEVER happened and never will...now more than NEVER.

> ..your understanding is faulty if not downright foolish. How do you suppose the "law" becomes the law? Who decides what those independent institurions will consist of?

Fred, I know what you are getting at, but the possiblity of the "law" being changed evantaully always exisits regardless if you have a democratic system or not.

...then that applies when Saddam was in power as well. And when he WAS in power the Kurds and Shiia WEREN'T!

...if it isn't democratic at all then it can be changed just as easily to throw all Christians out of Iraq. The only hope the Christians of Iraq have EVER had is to side with the majority Muslims and work for the good of the entire country, as Tariq Azziz and Dr Donny George did...what you have encouraged them to do would have gotten anyone shot and exiled in any country...

...you people NEVER suffered what South Africans did under Apartheid...neither have you suffered what countless millions have suffered throughout history...you can convince no one that you had it bad in Iraq and that this is the dawning of a new and better day...if things got worse for you after Simele...how will they improve after THIS inhumane and illegal war in which children were the prime target?

The potential to influence the law to protect and respect the rights of minorities is higher in a democratic system rather than say a monarchy with a strong central government.

...no it isn't. It all depends on the goodwill of the dominant majority...and you have helped place the Christians of Iraq in their most awkward and difficult position EVER...you can keep saying things MIGHT get better...and the people have to be patient and wait...but YOU left when things were not this bad...would you have waited it out...now? Would you stick around, with your children...and hope your theory gets implemented before your children die of malnutrition?

> I've learned not to bother with links posted for me to get the REAL facts from

Nasha, you need to take it easy and not be so confrontational all the time. I wish you can be a bit more open minded when you communicate as opposed to starting with your pre-defined opinion. The link was a useful one which I thought you may want to have a look at. It did not add to the subject. It was simply a reference if you wanted to look at a list of countries and the systems they have in place. This subject is not about you and me.

...this is a debate of sorts...we each have our point of view...and we each have information we think backs up our point of view...you can bet that if I have a bit of information that bolsters my case I am NOT going to tell you to go find it...I will bring it TO you...because I want to make the best possible case I can...why are YOU being confrontational?

...when were you ever banned from our forum? When was anyone?

I would be interested in knowing what your recommendations are for a system of government for Iraq.

...As long as America is using Israel to destabilize the MidEast...and as long as it uses its militray might to steal oil at its prices...then just as long will America have to keep strong men in power to do their bidding...as Saddam and the Shah and all those "Kings" we helped keep in power did till they went "rogue" and had to be replaced with new puppets...under those circumstances the fundamentalist Muslims...the best friends Bush ever had...will only grow stronger and more popular...it is inevitable and you can trace the rise of more and more desperate and bloody factions in Islam...to match the murderous Christians step by step...so long as that is the case democracy in any one of those countries will simply mean that the most fundamental elements will grow...so that democracy could be the death knell for Christians just as easily...because they are forever tainted by association...certainly in the eyes of the radical fundamentalists...the only hope for Christianty in the MidEast is to get foreign Christians to CHANGE their treatment of the people of the Mideast...and thanks to decades of abuse this will take even more decades to achieve...there is absolutely nothing to be done in the short-term to improve conditions for the Christians of the MidEast...not a damn thing...the best bet for all of them is to follow YOUR example and get the hell out...and YOU got out before things got THIS bad...why should they settle for less than you allowed yourself? Why must THEY suffer and die so YOU can have your theories?

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