The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> How the hell can one FIND anything in here?

How the hell can one FIND anything in here?
Posted by pancho (Moderator) - Monday, March 12 2012, 13:44:26 (UTC)
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Arrow wrote:
> once someone admits the "need" for a prime mover, or designer, or gardener, we´re back at God
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>God forbid!
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> there is no God simply because the people who SAY there is, can´t prove it
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>Scientists discuss multiple universes. There is no way to prove them.

...Scientists have never burned people at the stake for not believing in science...scientists to do not lie to children about burning in hell forever...scientists do not say we KNOW and knew all along starting 5000 years ago and our books are SACRED...scientists test their theories, in fact that is a main criterion...scientists do not deny people equal rights based on what Einstein said. There is no personal danger to you in disbelieving science and walking away form it...you will not be cursed by science or jailed or denied housing or health care...there is a world of difference between an idea that says it is perfect and one that says it is looking and DISCARDS its ideas once they prove futile.

..AND there is every practical need for science because science EXPANDS the human mind and utilizes the one thing that makes us Human: our REASON whereas religion has been content and eager to keep the human race barefoot and pregnant and ignorant....people may not understand science, but it is not deliberately obscurantist and, finally, stop changing the subject...we started out asking if God is a fantasy, not science.
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> > I was trying to say that anything that goes on within the universe must have a material explanation.
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>...you don´t know that it MUST...you can presume all you want to.
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>What? You mean some things might not have a material explanation?!

...science isn't sure of itself, it never has been and never will be...the day science speaks in absolutes is the day it stops being science.
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> you refuse to discuss the probabality of my pig
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>I'm not in the pig business anymore. I deal only with kosher food.

...cute but you're evading the simple point because it goes right to the existence of God, without bothering Augustine.
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> If there were flying pigs, or any kind, on Mars..what would the universe look like? See how by substituting just one word you all of a sudden "grow up" and realize this is silly?
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>No. I don't see anything. Pigs are an inappropriate analogy. You see:

...you scoff at pigs on Mars like I scoff at gods in heaven...you say my pig is ridiculous and I say your gods are equally ridiculous...one difference is my pig never burned anyone at the stake or demanded his piglet be sacrificed.....leave your god and come to my pig.
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>1. Anything that had a beginning must be caused by something other than itself
>2. The universe had a beginning, therefore it must be caused by something other than itself

...God had a beginning and must be caused by something else...Humans for instance.
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> > If there is a God, then what would the proof look like?
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>... let him step before my eyes or the eyes of anyone I trust
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>You said you will not believe in a miracle even if you saw it with your own eyes. How will you believe in God if he appeared to you? Who do you trust?

...I'll at least have something tangible to go on...right now I have to take someone else's word for it, and I'm not about to do that...like I said, and you ignored, hearsay evidence is not allowed in a trial over petty theft...and you want to introduce it for the God of the Universe?
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>If you saw a miracle, you will suspect that there is something wrong with your mind. But why don't you also suspect that there is something in your mind that is causing you to not believe in a miracle even if you saw it with your own eyes? What if you were suffering from Delusional Disbelief Disorder?

...bring the miracle and we'll talk then....I am always willing to change my mind when there is good evidence for it.
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> Arno Penzias was comparing scientific observation with what is written in the bible. It is not a matter of belief. There is also MIT physicist Dr. Gerard Shroeder who wrote a book concerning this subject.
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>...what they BELIEVE is what they believe.
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>I told you it is not a matter of faith or belief. Those are scientific facts.

...no, they are not and never will be just because you OR a scientist says they are...these are opinions.
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>According to bible, the universe was created in six days. But time changes depending on where and when you are situated in the universe. Genesis makes it clear that it is not using the earth as a reference point. Any physicist will confirm that a million million seconds on earth are equivalent to roughly one second from the perspective of the Big Bang.

...all whistles and farts....none of this is evidence of a god...none of it. These "facts" of yours can just as easily prove the existence of my pig as your god.
>
>If we consider the age of the universe and convert it to the Big Bang time scale, we will get six days. According to this clock, the sun was formed on the fourth day, life (Cambrian explosion) began on the fifth day... and so on. Thus, scientific observation coincides accurately with the Genesis narrative.

...oh brother! Look, I've extended you the benefit of the doubt because you can spell fairly well.....but you're skating on thin gods.

...stick to the point: we agreed not to bother proving the existence of gods or much of anything else, but only talking about people have done when they BELIEVED in gods. What difference does it make if they actually exist or not? Same difference.
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>There's a lot more in the bible than you think. Anyone can read it, but not anyone can understand it. Nahmanides was a prominent 13th century Rabbi. He had nothing but the Torah. After studying the book of Genesis, he came up with the following conclusion:

...the bible is a compilation of thefts, lies, fantastic lies and boring lies....it is not a book of morality but the opposite...it proposed nothing which didn't exist before, that was worthy of humans, that is.....and the New Testicles merely introduces the idea of punishment even after you're dead....and is nothing more than an up-close and personal look at only ONE of the innocent people your god murdered along the way....it is a book to be ashamed of, not brag about...and study??? Please!
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>“... at the briefest instant following creation all the matter of the universe was concentrated in a very small place, no larger than a grain of mustard.

...what is our authority for this statement?

The matter at this time was very thin, so intangible, that it did not have real substance.

...who told you this...what are his credentials?

It did have, however, a potential to gain substance and form and to become tangible matter.

...what is your authority for this?

From the initial concentration of this intangible substance in its minute location, the substance expanded, expanding the universe as it did so. As the expansion progressed, a change in the substance occurred. This initially thin noncorporeal substance took on the tangible aspects of matter as we know it. From this initial act of creation, from this ethereally thin pseudosubstance, everything that has existed, or will ever exist, was, is, and will be formed”
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>Hence, the Big Bang.

...no, no...you just explained the BIG PIG theory.
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> Do you finally get it?

...there is nothing to "get"...these are nice talking points for a slow day. They say nothing about that Pig or your God.

...the safest and wisest thing anyone can say is "I don't know"....and until I know, I don't KNOW! Theorizing is fine, proving theory is fine...but there is no God, there never has been...all your doodlings prove is that there is MYSTERY....mystery which should be approached rationally whenever we are ready and fit for it, and may we get there soon...but in the meantime your gods are nowhere to be seen in any of this...no more than my pig.


...stop with the fireworks, stop trying to numb us.....let's finally start what we started, which is; what have people done with the BELIEF in gods.....not the EXISTENCE of gods, but the BELIEF in their existence.



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