The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> I caught a FISH!!!

I caught a FISH!!!
Posted by pancho (Moderator) - Monday, April 23 2012, 0:50:17 (UTC)
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...my first catch of the day, and it's the editor of the page, who happens to be Iraqi and believes all the usual stuff.....here is the exchange,

John Joseph is an Armameaist who denies well accepted facts such as that the Name "Syria" comes from "Assyria". You might be more interested in the Assyrian Continuity page.

Yes, as I said before the article does need modifications, but your claim that Muslims did not persecute Christians while Christians did so when they had the chance is simply baffling.--Rafy talk 22:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I will be happy to cite sources. I am not saying that we Nestorians persecuted Muslims, we never had the chance, except, as again Joseph shows, when the Russians attacked Persia under Peter The Great in the 18th century and the Christians sided with the Russians and massacred countless Muslims..what I meant was that there is no evidence that the Arabs massacred the Christians JUST because they were Christians, in fact, and I will get you the sources, the Christians welcomed the Arabs because they saved them from being conquered by the Byzantines who would indeed have forced them to convert or else....if you recall Netorianism was a heresy to the Byzantines.

I've taken the liberty of bringing down a comment about Dr Joseph which I think goes to the heart of how people post their opinions or desires as fact...

"John Joseph's works are full with errors and amateurism..."

..let me interrupt right at the beginning to point out that this exactly the problem..we are told that Joseph is an amateur whose works are filled with errors...with no citation, no opposing professional historian, or academic of equal standing...we don't know who the person is making this critique and we don't know his or her qualifications. Dr Joseph is a highly respected and accomplished professional in this particular field....to be credible in slamming him and his work, it would be nice to know on exactly what basis....to continue,

"In his refutation of the continuation of the Assyrians on page 18 for instance, he claims that the term "Aturaye" was first used by "Nestorian" immigrants to the United States in the late 19th century. This is simply wrong since the name Athuraye and Athur has been continuously used for thousands of years,

...no, not in the late 19th century but around the 1920s, when this "we are Assyrians" business really took off....once again; there is no source, no citation, nothing. And on this bases we are supposed to disregard a man who has been a college professional for 30 years, had a building named after him by a grateful college and has been published by prestigious publishing houses all of whom subject manuscripts to peer-review and editorial scrutiny. This is simply not acceptable, or shouldn't be. Many of the sources used by nationalists are from "books" written, by what are truly amateurs, through the Vanity-press industry where you can get anything printed, not published, if you pay the fee..and these dubious "sources" are quoted as if they counted for anything....to continue.

...The particular citation, on page 18 regards the fact that magazines and newspapers in the United States, printed by and for the Nestorian community, changed their name from "Syrian" to "Assyrian", where it had not appeared before...why? ...In fact, in the spirit of what I am suggesting, here is the quote from that page;


“Daniel P. Wolk’s recent research shows that even the Urmiyah (in Iran, mine) Christians in America, in their own language, continued until after World War I to refer to themselves as Suryaye (Syrians, mine). In his reading of some of their major publications from 1907 to 1920, Wolk found that the first ethno-nationalist organization established in Urmiyah, Khuyada, Unity, was a Suryeta organization. Chicago’s newspaper "Mashk-hiddana Suryaya", Suryaya Herald, first published in 1915, changed to "Mashkhiddana Aturaya" only in 1920, when the nationalist discourse had come of age; the title in English was Assyrian American Herald, most probably because ‘Syrian’ in the United States stood for the more numerous Arab Christians from geographical Syria. See Wolk’s ‘The Emergence of Assyrian Ethnonationalism: Discourse Against the Hachaqogue (Theives of the Cross),’ paper presented at the Middle East Studies Association Conference (MESA), Chicago, December 6, 1998. For the growth of Assyrian nationalism quickened during the war years, and the presence of an Assyrian American delegation at the Peace Conference in Paris, see below, pp 156-157."

...If Dr Joseph is mistaken, please show how...and the status of those you rely upon, as in are they professors, historians etc....to continue;

"this can be seen in another work of him when he tries to answer a paper attesting the continuation of the Assyrians by Richard N. Frye by claiming that when Michael the Syrian mentioned that "ܐܬܘܪܝܐ ܕܗܢܘܢ ܣܘܪܝܝܐ"[6] (it's hnwn not hywn by the way, another amateurish mistake) he meant the inhabitants of Mosul, but he forgets or ignores the fact that "ṯ/t" in Aramaic is a very popular cognate of the Akkadian "š" (šinā -> treyn, šalāš -> ṯalāṯ...) and the Aramaic/Syriac "Aṯur" is simply a cognate of the Akkadian "Ašur". Funny though that those who called themselves Aturaye (or Nestorians) didn't live in the city of Mosul itself but rather in an area stretching from Nisibis to Urmia."

...again, Richard Frye is a professor of and an expert, in fact THE expert, on early Persian history. His wife happens to be Assyrian, but his field of expertise, like Simo Parpola, is not this one. He is welcome to his opinions, but regardless of his standing in other fields, he remains an amateur, though a highly qualified one, though still a non-professional, in THIS field...Dr Joseph would no more think of passing judgements on ancient Persian history, as one would expect Frye not to on this topic. Dr Joseph answered this particular article years ago and I will get us a copy...to continue,

Another shocking fact for you: The "Nestorians" of Hakkari and Urmia were not actually Nestorians and they never identified as such. They were taunted by this name by western Syrians (Jacobites), and it later come to be used by Europeans erroneously. The true creator of the Church of the East (its real name) was Babai the Great who was an opponent of Nestorian views"

..yes, of course...the Christians of Hakkari were another sect, but that changes nothing, and again, what are your sources? In answer to your claim that Assyrians always knew who they were, I'm sure you are aware that the Church of the East only added the word "Assyrian" to its name in 1976...why? Why then and why not well before?"

But, the accusations you've leveled against Dr Joseph are just that: accusations made by you with no sources other than those same accusations. I don't mean to be dismissive of your views, I just would like to be reassured that they are more than just your views. No doubt someone will now use what you have written as a "source I found on Wikipedia"...and that's exactly the problem. I will bring you sources for all claims I make on Joseph's behalf or on my own. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by


...this Fred Parhad, I neglected to sign my last post. I was impressed by the notice posted by the Administration at the top of the article on Assyrians...next to an orange exclamation sign is this; "This article needs attention from an expert on the subject". Clearly the Administration senses something is amiss, and it is. There is nothing wrong with the article as concerns the early history of the Assyrians, which is well known and documented by historians...however, the article slides into a confident description of modern Assyrians without establishing the evidence that there is such a thing...I mean serious, professional, historical evidence, not anecdotes and memories. It is, in many ways, a preposterous claim to make, especially when you couple it with what comes right after; that the "Assyrians" deserve to have a part of Iraq because they came first! If Greek showed up today claiming that he KNEW he was descended from the ancient Ionians and that his farmland was stolen by the attacking Dorians, and had been located right under where the Parthenon stands today, and he spoke Greek, and could dance Greek and ate food that was Greek...so, could they kindly hand over the Parthenon....we would expect such a person to be locked up, for his own safety if nothing else....at the least we'd get a good laugh out of it, but that's about all.



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