The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: How We Came To Believe II

Re: How We Came To Believe II
Posted by pancho (Guest) - Friday, February 23 2007, 17:46:14 (CET)
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Don wrote:
>“…tell me who has done this to “you”? Who? Did Iraq spit on Dr Donny George..or did the United States? You know, you ALL talk like you suffered a great deal..but I don’t see it. If you mean those nationalist hotheads who thought it was part of their religious or national duty to preach and advocate sedition in Iraq, then I’m sorry, but they asked for it…as they would have received the same in any other country…but you tell me what you have suffered? And tell me then who has NOT suffered such things? Go on…I’m all ears and eyes.”
>
>---LOL. I think you get so hyped when you reply to my posts that you miss the point.

..you know, I have less and less patience for people who LOOL all over us...if I misunderstood something, spare me your LOOLS and just point it out to me again.

I’m not saying that someone did something to me. I am sympathizing with the Iraqi people. I am not an Iraqi but the Iraqi people (Muslim, Christian, etc.) are the same blood as me and therefore, I have the right to sympathize with them when a country illegally bombs them. Does that make more sense to you?

..yes...so long as you make it clear that "we" is everyone in Iraq.
>
>“…as to remaining calm, yes…because pissing all over the rug won’t help things…hating your ‘enemies” won’t either…you people certainly scream and carry on so that anyone would thing Genghis Khan had sired you..but it’s all show…all “dimma shakheena”…with no substance behind it..once you discharge your tear ducts and strain your vocal chords you are all…ALL, as docile as mice. I remain calm to understand better…to learn what’s opposing me and to get the first lick in before my opponent knows what happened…I don’t see where anyone’s hot head or blood has translated into anything meaningful or lasting.”
>
>---Tell that to the Iraqi people who are being bombed all day…and night.


..I wasn`t speaking to the Iraqi people when I made that statement..I was speaking to you. Why do you shift the focus...did you misundertsand me? I was refering to you and people who think like you...is that more clear now?

And you expect them not to hate anyone? That’s what my original post was about: the Iraqi people, not just Christian Assyrians as you may have thought.

...I don`t think the Iraqi people hate anyone..I think they hate what is being DONE to them...the Iraqi people, like the Vietnamese will have no trouble forging one day and putting this all behind them...while you will be the one to continue hating...

I don’t know if Dr. Joseph is the kind that stays calm while watching his loved ones get raped in front of him

..you are being foolish...of course Dr Joseph wouldn`t remain calm...are you being raped as we speak? What is YOUR excuse, not the excuse of the Iraqis, for refusing to remain calm and rational and curious and willing to explore? Is anyone you know personally being raped right now, and is that why we shouldn´t talk about the subject...unless we yell and remain irrational? Is that going to help anything? How is this different from Bush saying, "How can I think about Iraq calmly and rationally when my soldiers are being raped by Iraqis"? It`s an appeal to emotion and to irrationality...which is the reason Dr Joseph refuses to indulge in it, not because he could "remain calm while someone dear to him was being raped"...and the reason you wallow in it is because you think it annoints your prejudices and justifies your continued scorn for reasoned debate...should a jury go insane with anger at the "raped victim" and yell and scream and weep over this CRIME...is that their job? Or are they supposed to remain CALM and rational and debate the necessarily conflicting evidence put forth at the trial in order to reach the truth in an unprejudiced and open manner...or do you prefer burning at the stake?

but I sure as hell know that the Iraqi people don’t like that and they have every right to fight back.

...and what has Dr Joseph written that takes that right away from? Why do you persist in hopping around the subject at hand like mad hare with a wild hair up his arse...why don`t you address the issues at hand instead of going off on a tangent and delivering a riff on what this subject inspires in your fevered imagination, which is being "raped" all the time with no apparent resistance from you.
>
>Or when Iraq was illegally attacked by America and America fabricated evidence and documents and went on TV to tell the country that they were going to destroy Iraq...er excuse me, LIBERATE Iraq, AND kept a cool, calm look on their faces while using "evidence" and "logical findings" then the people of Iraq who were getting bombed should have just sat there calmly and waited for the bombs to drop. Does that sound right????

..why are you bringing all this up? What has this to do with what I raised..or Dr Joseph addressed in his book? He has never denied that the Iraqi people are the Iraqi people..as he has never denied that the Nestorians and Catholics and Protestants of Iraq are Iraqi people..or that none of them have the right to be outraged or fight back at the injustice America and anyone else delivers to them...but what has this to do with Dr. Joseph`s claim and the argument, plus sources, he provides to show that the Nestorians are wrong when they say they are descendants of the ancient Assyrians...which is NOT what America attacked Iraq for...how does the current war in Iraq have any bearing on Dr Joseph`s thesis?
>
>“..this has nothing to do with anything I said…the fact that you don’t comprehend things does not constitute an emergency for me…we are not damaged by other people anywhere near to how we damage ourselves…we attack each other and also reduce ourselves to clowns way before we get close to a real battlefield. My comment still stands…we lower ourselves to the level of brutes whenever anyone punctures our fables, without even pausing to listen or consider..it’s a reflex with us…with no thought…very like a brute.”
>
>---On the contrary, it does. Read above. My initial post was to say that the Iraqi people have the RIGHT to fight back and to be pissed off and to hate Americans

...since the topic at hand was not the injustices aimed at the Iraqi people in this war of America`s, I`d like to know why you inserted it to begin with? Can you tell my why and what you thought to prove? My guess is that you attempted to steer the conversation away from where it was heading by inserting the unessary idea that I, or Dr Joseph were insensitive to the injustice being suffered by the Iraqi people as a whole in the war. You equated, in your fevered head, the idea that he or I were "attacking" one segment of the Iraqi people, the Nestorians, when we say that they are mistaken in their claim to being direct descendats of the ancient Assyrians..and this "attack", as you saw it, was equal, to you, as the current attack on Iraq and all its people, by the United States...and so you dropped the topic we were discussing;Nestorian claims, for your own; the injustice being done to the entire Iraqi people in America´s war, and¨"established", by this substitution, that "Dr Joseph is the sort who could watch idly while a loved one was being raped"..and for this they hand out diplomas?

Just because the Iraqis are getting angry and fueling an insurgency does not mean that they are not making good arguments…arguments that the US needs to get the hell out. See my point now? My point is that just because someone is angry does not mean his point is invalid or that he should not be listened to. That “stay calm and cool” thing is just a cop out…or something meant to aggravate people even more so that the conversation strays from its intended meaning and attention is paid to people’s behavior rather than the argument they were making. Actually, that’s the kind of crap you see on O’Reilly.

...when have I supported this war? When have I condemned the Iraqi Freedom Fighters for defending themselves as anyone in their position would? When? Why are you trying to steer the conversation away to a place where you can make it appear that I, or Dr Joseph "don`t care about what Iraqis are suffering" Why?
>
>“..I should think that would be obvious…I’m on the sane and civilized side..the side that explores before plunging..the side that isn’t afraid to consider anything…lkie the fact that we were never calling ourselves Assyrians before the Europeans did so…of course people mentioned the Assyrians…all the time..because they read about them in the bible…and since we lived ON the land that used to be Assyria, sloppy people could claim that THEY were the original Assyrians’ descendants…it’s an understandable “trick”…but a trick all the same…if you refuse to doubt, doubt everything, then you’re merely willing to swallow the food others chew for you…and I’m not.”
>
>---That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

..it does because you asked me¨"which side" I was on..and I replied that I was on the side of finding the truth of the matter by exploring these claims and counter-claims. But since I posted the original post, you have not responded to my original questions but instead have shifted the discussion to rape and not caring if Iraqis suffr at the hands of the United States...it is you who are providing your own information while not answering my questions.



I haven’t read this Joseph Smith guy’s book or whatever


..this, by itself, defines your state of mind...or lack thereof...he`s already "this...guy" to youy, without bothering to read his book or, now..even consider the points I bring from it. And that is what we always have done to our best and brightest and most talented..because they, by definition, choose to go OUTSIDE to the civilized world and to real universities and among professionals to compete against and on an equal footing with the best and brightes the world has to offer where they also teach and publish real books, while we prefer to remain in our own hothouse Assyria...and out there they are very quickly disabused of the notions that make us Assyrians in our little overheated and insular community where we "define" things the way we need them to come out...and so we respect and revere ONLY the silliest and sloppiest among us..also the ones who show utter and complete disdain for true knowledge and reason and history. As the one fellow said..I was "somebody" as an Assyrian sculptor..but I went "wrong" when I started thinking too much and therefore have been excommunicated from Assyria..leaving Aprim and maybe you, to become its champions...and you wonder?

so my point was not really to sit and take things apart as it was to tell you that just because people get heated and loud does not mean their arguments are worthless and should not be listened to.

..it almost does. That`s the mistake every Muslim guest on the talk-shows made when going up against the Oxford-trained Jews in "debates"...the station did its homework and knew whom it was choodsing...fo just the fact that the Arab invariably spoke with a heavy accent, while the Jew had the soft tones of Oxford, remaining calm while justifying the most obvious injustices his country commits against the Palestinians.,...while the Muslim, with hisotry and reason on his side, lost every time because even the slightest raising of the voice, from justified and suppressed rage at injustice, appeared to the AUDIENCE, which was the whole point, as a hothead and just the type of emotionally charge "terrorist" or potential terrorist the Jews and the owners of the station and their sponsors, were making him out to be...so, Yes...ones tone of voice, even the level of it can hurt legitimate views..if you are speaking to the LARGER AUDIENCE and not your fellow choir-members.

..the "point" you labored to strenuously to make wasn`t even a rat`s fart worth of anything anyone need to "establish"...we were speaking of the overheated passions that have ruled us WAY before this war on Iraq...we were speaking or errors committed in CLASSICAL times regarding the mis-identification of Assyrians...and, as you can see, those passions are intense and unreasoning..and they shout all over the place..but that does NOT mean our people are shouting these things, as they have been for years, JUST because there is a war on Iraq...in fact nothing in Dr Joseph`s book or in our discussion goes up tothis war...so why waste our time to establish that you are indeed wasting our time...why not bring whatever brains and knowledge you can scrape together to DEAL WITH THE ISSUE AT HAND?
>
>“..that’s a brutish statement coming from someone who’s paying Americans to “teach” him what he could read for himself.”
>
>---You’re sort of pulling an Ashur Soro here…if I can count how many times you used the word “brutish” in your recent posts….

.and you`re pulling a "Don" here, if I can count how many times you say I am pulling an "anything" here...does that advance anything?
>
>...And just to clarify things for you, I am not paying nor did I ever pay Americans to “teach” me anything. My schooling was all paid for by scholarships and financial aid.

..you had to support yourself, or someone else did...therefore whether you paid, or someone else did, it COST money to educate you.

That’s b/c I was never a slacker and I made sure to earn good grades and learn real stuff,

..that`s to say you`re easy to train...so is my dog. Your notion of education means to repeat, accurately, what you were told to memorize..whether by Bush or Karl Marx makes no difference. I`m talking about THINKING...for yourself about ALL of them...which is what Dr Joseph did with his book...he took on ALL of us and ALL we think we know as well as ALL of the calssical and other erros about us...that`s quite a challenge..and whilke there were plenty of "answers" already out there..put out by very well known people on ALL sides of the issue...he strove to find his own way through the conflicting "facts" and errors and hearsay and the rest...all you`ve done is refuse to "memorize" one expert in favor of "memorizing" his blood enemy...that`s not education...the Latin root of the word means "to bring out"...bring out what is within you...meaning your REASON..not you prejudices and NOT to stuff yourself with facts and "truths" like turkey...and Dr Jacobs, in this book and I assume in his career as a professor, one soon to be honored with a building named after him.. has done. Setting aside all the similar explanations of we are the direct descendants etc. he read the original sources plus commentary by various professionals in the field, compared this what he was taught as a member of our community and thn applied his REASON, backed by sources, to make the argument in this book. You are merely repeating what you were taught, with some additions here and modifications there...which is nowhere near as thorough and total a job of self-examination that Dr Joseph risked..and instead of being proud of his achievements and the respect he has gained for us in the outside world, you react like the typical darling boy of Assyria when someone takes his ntional toys away and says it`s past time for him to lay his fevered head on the pillow and dream there.

unlike the slothful people around me who copied each other’s stuff. I graduated college at the age of 19, which is a lot more than what most people can say. That is not to brag but just to tell you about what kind of person I am. I am neither jealous nor envious of any Ivy Leaguer. If academic achievements are anything to be proud of, I have enough of my own.

..what a peevish brat you are...to compoare your BS or BA or "whatever" with not ony the advanced degree Dr Joseph earned from a university you might not have qualified for...but to compare yourself, even slightly, to a man who taught for most of his life and as a professor Emeritus...who published books and articles, not in Zinda, but in real magazines which need to sell magazines in ordere to survive and are not therefore in the fantasy or "error" business...adding to that a former student who is donating money for a building on the college campus to be named, not after the donor, but the man he, and others as well as the college itself, seek to honor for his achievements..and you want to place yourself anywhere near to this? And what makes you so rash and so seemingly bold? Is it because you believe you are a son of Ashurbanipal? is THAT what all this is about? Is your "Assyrian Descent" the equivalent to a penis-booster for your little dick of an ego?
>
>“..especially if you can’t get into them…you’re beginning to sound like the wounded peasant boy who’s pride is miffed…those Ivy league schools you knock have also produced the people who built the country your parents ran to…don’t forget that.
>
>---Ahahaha. That’s hilarious…it’s okay I won’t bust your balls about my school record, you don’t know me personally. I didn’t bother with the Ivy Leagues b/c I spent most of my life in the East Coast and wanted to get out of there. Whereas you wanted to leave Turlock b/c you were sick of Assyrians, I wanted to come here to be around my people more and be around family which I had not seen my whole life, besides which my parents needed to get out of the cold b/c of health problems. Furthermore, no one would have had to “run” to America if America didn’t mess up Iran. Ask anyone who lived there prior to the 1979 Revolution…Iran was superior to America at that time in many ways. And now that Iran is building itself back up again, America wants to try to ruin it again.
>
>“…then what are you doing getting a degree in brainwashing..and paying for the privilege…how smart are you?”
>
>---I already earned my degree which I was smart enough not to pay for and I didn’t do it for any prestige or for money…any idiot will know that a Political Science degree will not earn you that much. I did it with the initial intent of using the degree as a springboard to get into Berkeley’s Assyriology program so that I can have access to the tablets, dictionaries, and artifacts. And at the same time, I have spent some time in learning Ancient Assyrian [Akkadian] when possible. My intentions have never been selfish and I don’t think any of my endeavors have been a waste of time.

...not as a study of the ancient Assyrians...it would be the same if, as a Nestorian or American, you decided to study and learn the language of the Aztecs..or Navajo, or any other ancient people..but when you go around insisting that you ARE the descendant of any of those...and have nothing to show except proof that they "existed" once and maybe a feather in your head from "Assyria"...then you are way off...and can stay there.

...I apologize for getting personal, but this is what always happens when this subject is raised among seemingly civilized people...we revert, some faster than others, to brutes and savages howling at the moon...like I just said to Maggie...I`m no longer going to play this game, no longer going to veer away from the topic to make LOOL or anything else...I`ll respond only when you provide solid evidence, as Dr Joseph has, to contradict or better explain him with reasoned argument based on such evidence and not on what "you learned" or what "everyone knows", and for any claims you have to make about his "errors" or nefarious motves..and that`s it. I don`t have the time to keep you afloat.



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