The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: Just Kidding...

Re: Just Kidding...
Posted by pancho (Guest) - Monday, May 28 2007, 20:58:26 (CEST)
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>TDH: With all (proper &) due respect to my beloved parents, if I or any person for that matter, had been content with what they had taught us as kids, then I'm afraid humankind would have been stuck in the stone age, and never evolved. Its this openness, flexibility and willingnes to learn that has me even entertaining the thoughts and theories of those on "the other side" of things, i.e. Professor Shamsaddin Megalomattis and John Joseph. I'll tell you one thing, it wasn't my parents who taught me "Easter" came from Ishtar, nnd that as well as Xmas are really Assyrian holidays that were always celebrated....only later was Jesus tacked on to these old traditions, to help ease the convesion of these "new believers", as they made that (somewhat seamless) transition. We all (our people today) should know how the ancient Assyrians loved to incorporarte other religions and add it to their own. So yeah, its safe to say that I'm thinking on my own two feet here.

...this must be Don...who might have been someone else altogether...how would any of us know? Regardless, yes...as a general rule what you say is true...though I`m not so sure about Easter and Ishtar...but cleary the ancient people of that region, including the people of the great Islamic Empire, have contributed to whatever we have.
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>I will agree however, that I am the furthest thing from a historian. I happen to either be presented with, or come across information that I make sure is well cited before I come to any conclusion.

..that`s good, though any "conclusions" are risky...
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>The problem with these 2 professionals that I've been referring to by name, is that they do not keep it consistent and I believe their swiss-holed cheese position is laughable at best.


..so much for the noble-sounding trumpet you blew to announce yourself just now...after all you just said it would seem we`re back to an addmitted non-historian taking it upon himself to ridicule historians...let me ask you then, why does anyone bother to BECOME a historian and, more to the point, why are such degrees and expertise required of anyone to teach same? Why, for instance, can`t YOU get such a job..if it`s all that easy and of no great moment? Why can`t any of you nationalists holding all these "conclusions" get teaching jobs at universities, colleges and high schools and set the record straight once and for all? It seems to me that would be the best way to make fools of these "silly historians", so silly that they wasted years and money and hard work for nothing...and, you`d be able to influence so many generations of young people of all backgrounds...why don`t you and Aprim and Maggie and BetBoohoo all apply at the history department of Franklin and Marshall College and begin there? I`m sure they`ll be happy to have such fine non-historians, with conclusions, who can begin to undo the damage Dr Joseph has done? Why not get started right away...why waste time here?

They offer up many valid points, which, Im afraid nullifies itself with their lack of consistency and/or double standard/hypocritical stance they convey.

..it must be so easy being you.

What I meant by their "selective history", is they seem to disregard any historian that does indeed refer to the Assyrians/Babylonians post 612 fall of the empire. While I contend that our Chadean/Babylonian/Assyrian mesopotmaian people became pretty much a non factor as far as being a world power politically, this fact does not mean that they ceased to exist.

...no one, not Dr Joseph, not Gearge Roux, not anyone, said they "ceased" to exist...neither did the people of Gaul "cease" to exist...nor all the people who became "Arabs" who never heard of Arabia, "cease" to exist...the people, as people, as bloodlines, as genetic carriers, who went on breeding, ALL survived...the knowledge and consciousness of what they were CEASED....yes, the word Assyrian, Babylonian, Chaldean and others, survived because of the Bible....the WORD continued to exist...no one argues that...but, the knowledge of the people that THEY were direct descendants and therefore the "people", CEASED...that is the whole point of the book.

What these two in particular always either minimize or fail to mention, is how the temple of Ashur was rebuilt on several occasions, by the Persians and destroyed by Sassanid king Shapur I (241-272 AD). This is obviously hundreds years after the infamous Assyrian fall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assur

..if it was...it was not rebuilt by any "Assyrians"...the remaining "pure" Assyrians soon stopped being so...they were inundated by the ethnic groups who swarmed over that region...neither did the Sumerians or Hittites "cease" to exist...those who survived were gradually swallowed up in the Assyrians...where are the Amorites...where are the Kassites...did they "cease" to exist? Of course not...but who goes around today saying he is a Sumerian...or a Kassite...or a Celt?
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>Here are just a few other sources that the staunch Assyrian deniers fail to acknowledge:
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>Dr. Brinkman also makes mention that the Romans captured Nineveh, which they called Ninus, in 115 BC and again in 200 AD when they set up the province, which they named Assyria.The temple of Nabu at Nineveh was also repaired in the first century AD.

...People knew the NAMES...the geographical names, of those locations...that proves nothing. You could have been born in Arizona...which everyone knows is the land of the Navajoes...that does NOT make you a Navajo, by ethnicity.

Assyrian, Aramaic, and Greek inscriptions have been found in Nineveh, dating to this time. Kalhu was also resettled and the temples rebuilt.

..of course they were...but not exclusively by Assyrians...with the fall of their empire the land was opened to all sorts of newcomers...that is the entire history of that region...PEOPLE resettled and built...but the consciousness of what they used to be gradually disappeared...they became, in time, people who LIVED, who were born, in ancient Assyria, but they forgot their language and then their culture and history...they changed their religion and then their names and then forgot their own ancient history..and most of them STILL don`t know it.

Assur became a great and prosperous city again and the temple of Assur restored.

...the few remaining Assyrians died out quickly...along with their religion and language...if you forget your mother tongue, remember, you will forget who you were. Isn`t that what we tell all our children when we urge them not to forget Aramaic today? And there is the irony of it...that we insist it mattered not at all to our "Assyrian identity" to forget Akkadian, which was the language of the Assyrians...in which they wrote their own history, or that we forgot our own religion of Ashur BUT...we tell them, they must NEVER forget Aramaic or Christ because THAT would be the end of them as "Assyrians". Pretty silly, no?

The inhabitants, though, had now lost the idea of a ziggurat as a religious building and began to use it solely as a watchtower.All the gods of the Assyrian pantheon were still being worshipped 800 years after the fall of the Assyrian empire.[54] This is backed up by esteemed archaeologist and historian Georges Roux in his book Ancient Iraq.[55]

...yes but as a dwindling and feeble cult...who knows when the last "Assyrian" died out...but we know such a consciousness was dead up the time it was revived, mistakenly, by the Europeans.

..one has to wonder...you all insist that history proves there were no Chaldeans until the pope called them that in the 17th century AD...when those Nestorians returned to orthodoxy...you all KNOW and SEE that...but you can`t see the same thing happened with modern Assyrians..that they had no knopwledge of themselves, THEMSELVES, as Assyrians until the Europeans clapped that name to them in the 19th century AD...till then and for centuries past, they knew themselves as Suraye, never as Atouraye. And, for the umpteenth time, Suraye is a Jewish subsitute for Aramaic...we became known by our new language and culture and then religion of Jesus...just as so many varied ethnic groups were swallowed up under the title of "Arabs"...adopting the Arab language as "theirs" as well as the Arabian religion of Islam...I don`t understand why it`s so difficult to see the similarity...and this happened well before people thought of themselves as members of any nation..in fact, religion plus language WAS all the "nation" those people knew till the 19th century AD.
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>Between the second century BC and third century AD, authors Patricia Crone and Michael Cook state in their book Hagarism[56] that,
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>“Assyria… had been left virtually alone by the Achaemenids and Seleucids; condemned to oblivion by the outside world, it could recollect its own glorious past in a certain tranquillity. Consequently when the region came back into the focus of history under the Parthians, it was with an Assyrian, not a Persian let alone Greek, self-identification: the temple of Ashur was restored, the city was rebuilt, and an Assyrian successor state returned in the shape of the client kingdom of Adiabene.”[57]

...obviously you haven`t read Dr Joseph`s book...or you would know more of what you have lifted...it`s funny how you can come to "conclusions" about things you know nothing of. I can see why Dr Joseph has given up trying to reach and teach each new wet-behind-the-ears crop of nationalists we manufacture....I`m amazed he had this much patience...you are wearing mine down..not to discuss the topic, but rather to keep dealing with people who are PROUD not to know what they speak of....
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>Georges Roux, the author of Ancient Iraq[58], mentions that after the introduction of Christianity into Assyria, “We know that some of the ancient temples were restored, that Ashur was worshipped in his home town, that a cult was rendered to Nabu in Borsippa until, perhaps, the fourth century AD.”

...as was stated several times...no one says every single Assyrian ceased to exist....
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>Roux further states that, "After the fall of Assyria, however, its actual name was gradually transferred to Syria. Thus, in the Babylonian version of Darius I inscriptions, Susa f, Eber-nari ("across-the-river," i.e. Syria,

...no, it`s name was not "gradually transferred"..that is an assumption based on the similarity of the two words...New York became the newer name for what had been New Amsterdam, which itself was a name for an island owned by Native Americans, when the Brits replaced the Dutch in that city...but the inhabitants of New Yok did not become English...the geographical location known as "new" York was not the same place as "old" York, England.

..that fact that people continued to live and be born in "Assyria"...did not MAKE them Assyrians...especially as they soon forgot the language and culture and religion of the ancient Assyrians. When Pakistanis are born in London they become "English" by nationbality...that doesn`t mean they are descended from Oliver Cromwell.

Palestine and Phoenicia) corresponds to the Persian and Elamite Athura (Assyria). Besides, in the Behistun inscription, Izalla, the region of Syria renowned for its wine, is assigned to Athura.” (Izalla or Izla / Izlo is the southern part of the Tur-‘Abdin region in which is the famous monastery of St. Eugenius)

...like I said....the field needs to be covered by those who have bothered to put in the time..you are merely cherry-picking and selectively using what suits you. Dr Joseph and others have covered this ground for decades...you merely know a corner of it, as they do...but you don`t know the rest...as they do.
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>much more here http://www.nineveh.com/WhoAreTheAssyrians.html <very well cited article
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>I've tried to engage Shamsaddin Megalomania

...are you sure his parents called him that?

man several times but he's failed to oblige. What's funny is, all I have on my side going for me is just a few sources I'm calling him out on to acknowledge, and common sense.... he seems to be afraid of that much. Never once did I insult the man, either. Where is their confidence? What about a debate scenario, where those who deny the Assyrian link and history can challenge the pro Assyrian side? Since they took it upon themselves and went out of their way to create their theories, why not take it another step further and challenge the Assyriologists, etc? From all indications and impressions I've come across in that regard, the ones who deny the Assyrian link are the ones who SHY AWAY from being confronted, or challenged on a scholar level.

...I seriously doubt anyone is shy of you and your conclusions. It`s flattering to think so...would you say Bush was "shy" of debating you? Why should scholars in the field even bother to deal with you and your challenges? You may legitimately "challenge" these people only after showing that you have covered the field extensively...otherwise every halfwit with three books would think himself ready...and call people "shy" who didn`t have the time to waste. Like I said before, it`s strange that we have never produced any world-recognized historians of our own...people who`ve studied all there is to study and have produced real books and articles with their, and your, particular point of view...your beliefs and conclusions are much easier to maintain if you also maintain a vast amount of ignorance to go with them and help sustain them...I`m afraid serious study would burst your bubbles, as it would the bubbles of many of our nationalist "scholars".
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>What those seemingly anti-neoAssyrian professors ALWAYS fail to acknowledge, is how the ASSYRIAN TERM is much more than a single ethnic group. They fail to understand, or point out I should say, that the Assyrian term was encompassing of all peoples within the Assyrian empire, (let alone the heartland of Assyria people we are referring to) as if the Assyrian influence and power was an overnight thing like the Mongol rule. Its this minimizing of Assyria that raises eyebrows of those not buying into their BS. While they gladly point that Aramean became the language of Assyrians and the middle east, what they CONSTANTLY FAIL to point out is that the Assyrians ALLOWED AND WILLINGLY INCORPORATED THIS.


..and what would you say to a modern Assyrian learning and only speaking Arabic? Is he still "Assyrian"? Why is it wrong to allow belly dancing at conventions...why is belly dancing NOT Assyrian? Why not learn it too? Why is being "Assyrian" about "so much more" but NOT about anything to do with Islam, or Arabs?

Just like my African-American example I made earlier, these Arameans came from no where, and slowly became part of the Assyrian society, so much so, they gained high status in the empire.

..they didn`t come from nowhere...apparently the Assyrian kings who fought them for 300 years thought more of them than you do.

NOT as Arameans, but as ASSYRIANS. Assyrians never submitted to the Arameans nor did they become subjects of an Aramean empire. They essentially merged, and it was always under the ASSYRIAN BANNER.

...hardly...the Arameans were defeated soon before the fall of empire...and their language took the place of Akkadian 110 years before the end of empire...the Assyrians were exhausted, as happens to every empire...it was time for newer people, younger more energetic people, to take their place and the Aramean language and then the culture swept the region...it did not BECOME Assyrian...the Assyrian BECAME the Aramaic...but not the Assyrian of the Assyrian empire at its peak..remember that once before the Assyrians had been conquered and ruled by the Hurrians....their end came through exhaustion, in every sense of the word...and the Aramic culture and language became dominant in time.

THey also dont point to how the Assyrians squashed the rebel Arameans, and kept those a like in check. So how the fuck did Assyrians controlling Arameans, merging into one people eventually as Assyrians, turn into Assyrians disapearing and evolving into Arameans after the Assyrian fall? See how silly that sounds?

...no one said Assyrians disappeared...we said that the consciousness disappeared over time..that the remaining Assyrians forgot their history and culture with their language, as they forgot their religion and learned instead a Jewish one.
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>An African American, no matter how black the motherfucker is,

...let me take this occasion to call you a motherfucker as well. It`s a conclusion I drew based on your free use of the term.


will always be AMERICAN, because he is in the country of America.

...what a starnge mind you have.


That is the land of Assyrians, that was established by Assyrians in ancient times, and was controlled by Assyrians the longest while in its early stages. Its why Assyrians claim ownership.

....it belonged to someone else first...ownership, in international law, has to include possession...or it is meaningless...every nation today stole its land and legitimized that theft by KEEPING it..there is no such thing as perpetual ownership in history.


Rome will always be Rome, as Nineveh will always be Nineveh.

...then I expect you to be getting of the land of the Native Americans....since the land will ALWAYS be Rome. Why are you living on the stolen lands of indigenous people?


More importantly, this is the land of Assyrians, meaning, Assyria(n) land. A Kurdish person can be Assyrian, since he is living in Assyria.

...Arizona used to be the land of the Navajos...California used to be the land of the Mexicans...let`s try to accept these things.

Again, referring to the "American" label comparison. A Turkoman, Yazid, etc, all are a part of the Assyrian mosaic as far as Im concerned,

...a scholar-historian can`t use that term..."as far as I am concerned"...that`s why it`s so easy for you..and also the reason none of you become historian-scholars.


so long as they remain living in Assyria. While its not a new concept to rename lands (I.E. Kurdistan) in modern times, its a travesty that the Assyrian name remains REMOVED with Assyrians still around.

..it is not a travesty at all....not unless you get everyone else occupying someone else`s land to call what they are doing a travesty as well....The Native Americans hold treaties today promising them all sorts of lands...think there`s any chance?


Iraq was a great concept ("Iraq" being inspired by "Uruk", the Sumerian/Akkadian city-state) that made for a sound representation of all Mesopotamian peoples. However, those fucks have a hard time with democracy,

...as a well qualified fuck yourself surely you know that by itself democracy simply means majority rule? Hitler was elected to office..he didn`t seize power. Iraq has hardly had the backgound or chance to develop a culture of pluralism...such as the Europeans had....


and have a hard time distinguishing from Christians in the EAST, and Xtians in the WEST. Funny thing is, Assyrians dont refer to themselves with that falsified greek term, "Xtian", they refer to themselves as "msheekhaye" or Messiah follower.

..which makes them Jewish...there is no concept of a Messiah among the Assyrians. How many things can you change but still "stay" Assyrian?

This, and the fact that GWB didn't come over and play favorite to Assyrian Xtians (Western Evangelists dont relate to or acknowledge Eastern Xtians) should be telling to those stupid fuckin terrorist fucks now giving them excuse to harras and kill our people back home. I don't see terrorists having the balls to fuck with the Kurds, who are DIRECTLY getting fed by and givin the reigns to by the Americans. So for this and many other reasons, Assyrians deserve Assyria, as IRAQ or Kurdistan, Iran, etc will NEVER work.


...modern Assyrians can`t hold a dance...or a picnic...without cursing each other`s mothers...they can barely run bingo games...all your flowery talk is just that...all the evidence shows that you are NOT Assyrian, in any meaningful sense of the word..all that heritage means to you is a great sacrifice that you made on the altar of yahwe...as a way of brown-nosing yourself into a Jew paradise.



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