The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: Same Sex Marriage

Re: Same Sex Marriage
Posted by pancho (Moderator) - Saturday, December 10 2011, 18:49:43 (UTC)
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Arrow wrote:
>At first we were having a friendly discussion...

...I'm always friendly...I just can't coddle idiocy or doctrine.

or so I thought. Now, your tone has changed and I became “weird”, I have a “handicaps”, and everything I said was from someone else.

...I see in this post too you give me lessons and quotes from others...be original.

I never directed any offensive remarks towards you. Never. Your aggressive behavior is purely unsolicited.

...to even ask if Gay marriage should be legalized is vulgar in itself...and promotes violence by continuing the bigotry which has resulted in so much real and actual suffering....my words can never hurt you...but your hatred of gay people hurts them.
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> >Religion gives marriage a spiritual meaning but in the eyes of the law it is a mere contract.
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> ...YOU claim religion does this. I don;t agree and don;t know what you're talking about or where you got this idea.
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>The church labels it a sacrament, a sacred institution. It involves God in it. There are many verses in the bible pertaining to marriage. For example:

...there you go again...giving me what the church says as if it matters what it says. I don't take pronouncements from the church seriously..it's as if I backed up a claim by saying the Lion's Club, or the Mickey Mouse Club, says so. The church, with its zillions and bloody history, is in no position to lecture us on spirituality.
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> “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together , let not man put asunder .”
>- Mark 10:6-9

...look, you said you wanted a serious discussion...at the very least give me YOUR words and ideas...don't repeat to me the words of this barbaric institution with more blood on its hands than the Nazis.

...my grandmother was sold into marriage at 14 by an older brother who didn;t want to care for her or their mother..and taking the mother was part of the bargain...she had a boyfriend studying medicine in the United States, in 1919, and was looking forward to joining him and becoming a doctor as well...instead she found herself, on her wedding day, confronted with a man of 36, a widower with two daughters only a year or two younger than herself...all her dreams and hopes were shattered...she spent the day before the wedding burning all the love-letters exchanged with the young man she loved....on her wedding night she was raped...what else would you call it...and a priest from a "spiritual" church blessed this assault and sale....tell me about it.
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>And here is the Catholic catechism regarding marriage: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm

...how can I say this politely, so you won;t be offended..as offended as I am when you quote this nonsense to me....let me put it this way; if you have an original thought, or one more nearly your own, let us have it and have at it...but could you refrain from quoting me the words of an institution I have no use nor respect for...kay?
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> The State doesn;t care if you are in love when you marry, or stay in love if you stay married...it is only concerned with legal rights and obligations and property..it is the PEOPLE involved who deal in love.
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>We're not talking about love, dumdum. We're talking about the legality of same-sex marriage.

...you were talking of spirituality....marriage is indeed a contract...you can marry without love and you can love without marrying. BUT, if you want to marry, then you have that right, as a citizen to NOT be discriminated against...that being so, anyone can legally marry who qualifies...and Gay people qualify for all the rights and contracts straight people do.

The legal grounds or justifications behind it. We're discussing it from a legal perspective. It's a legal issue.
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> then why should this contract between two person only? Why not 20? Or 100? Why do they prevent the Mormons (or whatever) and Muslim Americans from having multiple partners?
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> ...do I really have to answer this for you? Is it a serious question? Weren't you the one just saying you don;t want to waste time, don;t want to go in circles?
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>What circles? That's the first time I ask this question and that's first time you answer it

...did you really have to ask? Did you NOT know that marrying more than one wife, or husband, is already illegal and will not change when Gays legally marry?

Where are the circles? You, on the other hand, make me repeat myself over and over and over and over and over again. It takes a lot of effort to get the idea through. You said you once overheard people arguing in college. Were you there as a student? And if you were, did you ever graduate?

...no, I came to my senses and walked out of finals my last semester. There is no mystery here...I don;t need a degree to tell me that Gays getting married will not lead to men and women having multiple marriage partners...where did you get that idea...college?
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> The reason you can't have 2 or 20 is because these things are already ILLEGAL! No one is asking to make an illegal thing legal. Marriage is LEGAL....denying that right to Gay people will become ILLEGAL
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>Amazing! You should have been a lawyer! I mean seriously, what was that? What on earth are you saying? How did you formulate this?

...straight people cannot marry more than one spouse, look it up...so what gave you the idea that if Gay people also marry, under the same laws as straight people do, that this might lead to anyone being allowed to marry ten wives...or husbands?


If marriage is legal then placing restrictions on marriage will become illegal?

...it is already ILLEGAL to marry more than one person at a time...you tell me why you think our laws will change all of a sudden to allow me to marry ten wives at a time...


Is that what you're saying? Not all marriages are legal. Marriage to a minor is illegal.

...if it's illegal than it;s ILLEGAL! No Gay person is asking to be allowed to marry a minor. And by the way, you CAN marry a minor if you get the consent of the parents....happens all the time. Try to get your facts straight...doesn't take a lawyer to listen and read and be aware.

Marriage to a close relative is illegal.

...define your terms...you can marry first cousins.

In other countries, polygamy is legal. Laws are man made. They change. What was illegal in the past can become legal now.

...that's merely a scare-tactic. Anything CAN happen...

...what have laws in other countries have to do with laws in this country? If polygamy is legal in other countries how come America hasn't adopted them? Why is it still illegal here, even though it is legal there? Gay people being allowed to marry will not change any of the laws we already have against other forms of marriage, because those have always been illegal, except for miscegenation. You are having hysterics....or trying to give hysterics...stay calm....besides which, what the hell is it you if people have three wives?
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>What I was saying is (try to focus here), if same-sex marriage is legalized merely on the basis that the notion of marriage is nothing more than a contractual document stipulated between two parties,

...who said it is nothing more? YOU say it. Gay partners who want to marry don;t say that...YOU say it. To the State, NOT to partners, it is indeed a legal contract...nothing spiritual about it...it is a CONTRACT. And Gay people want the right to enter into that CONTRACT. period.


then on what legal basis the lawmakers, in the future and in a world where there is no God or no moral absolutes, can be prevented from enacting another law thereby legalizing documents that involve more than two parties?

...we live by LAWS...always have. And those laws have always changed and hopefully, always will...we don;t want to be locked into YOUR system of laws for eternity..people change, civilizations change, values change...this is normal and just as it should be....it may scare you but it gives Life to the rest of us...we are not afraid of the Devil...we trust human nature.

...you're using the "slippery slope" argument. Well, neither you nor I can predict the future..if lawmakers want to legalize something some day, the Supreme Court of that day will have to pass on it...and if the People are content to make those choices...they will. You can't control the future...but that's a non-argument. The issue is TODAY, not "some day". Some day is something for people who like to worry and try to scare people with THEIR fears...the rest of us don;t scare so easily.

...sadly, for you, the will of the People trumps YOUR will. The will of the People can change law and custom and habit...and there is not a thing you can do about it, thankfully.
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>Who am I talking to? I bet he won't get it... you know what? Forget it.

...just like "you have to have faith" when the rest of your "arguments" don;t work or your "proofs" hold water...you have to say "forget it" now. It's always the same with you people...you come on with your ten cent arguments and "experts" and fear-mongering and when that doesn't work you say "forget it" as if it was MY failure to understand...I understand perfectly and know what to say to make your efforts worthless...this naturally angers you and you have to go away.

...you are a born-again. These types are severely limited where rational discourse is concerned...you are an "intellectual" born-again who drags in the ideas of others and quotes from here and there...but those don;t work either so you are left with nothing...except to get faux-indignant that you are being "insulted"...it's all the smoke-screen you emit as you race away.

...what Gay people want to do is none of your business, nor the business of the church or your god....end of story. It's between them and our/their Constitution....so butt out.



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