The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: The Assyrian Logic VS The Assyrian Identity

Re: The Assyrian Logic VS The Assyrian Identity
Posted by pancho (Guest) - Friday, September 21 2007, 20:02:01 (CEST)
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Mancho wrote:
>Pancho, or is it "pancho"?
>
>“My only interest in it is to place it in proper perspective...”
>
>*** Proper perspective? From who’s point of view?

..not from yahwe's, that's for sure.
>
>“I'm concerned Christianity has been a disaster, not just for us, but for almost everyone else in the world who was not Christian..including many, many other Christians.”
>
>*** True, but that’s only because of ignorance. Had people not been ignorant, they would have behaved differently. The proof for that? Not every Christian is/has been a demon.

...not every one of them has to be a demon for the religion to be demonic..and it has been. It's enough to have one person out to murder you...it doesn't take ten thousand.

..the church, and Christianity too, thrives on ignorance..that and obscurantism. Christ was a nice guy...he said nothing no one else hadn't articulated better and way before him...clearly the Romans made Christ one of them and not the other way around.

...you don't wait to pull a medicine off the shelves till it kills a majority of those taking it...neither do you wait until it kills 100 out of ten thousand...it gets pulled as unacceptably dangerous and not worth the risk if it kills three out of 100...more people have been killed by Christianity than have ever benefitted by it.
>
>“Also it's imperative to shoot down every argument made that we are the indigenous people of Iraq, as verses anyone else in Iraq...and to refute, with evidence and reasoning, any claim to direct ancestry from Ashurbanipal etc. “
>
>*** Evidence? You mean “your” (whatever his name is) book's "evidence"? Only Fools would think that “a book”, no matter how scholarly, written by someone, is the FINAL answer to an issue like that. (Show some reasoned logic and intelligence. Don’t people like you ever LEARN that there is no absolute truth, because truth ALWAYS changes?

...we don't deal in absolute truth in cases such as this...we are not dealing with a heaven on clouds...which somehow YOU see absolute proof for. We all know that Assyrians know the "truth" about where modern Chaldeans came from...we all scoff at them and say the "proof" that they are a European invention is right there for all to see...we can show documents which date the coming of the pope's people to BetNahrain...we know they converted many Nestorians back to orthodoxy...we know that this was the first time the word Chaldean appeared, in the modern era..and we know they aren't REAL Chaldeans...at least we admitted all this opnely before some of us got clever and thought to increase our numbers by herding us all together in hopes that this would give us more clout...we see plainly enough that Chaldeans were fabricated out of Nestorioan cloth by Europeans...yet we fail to see the evidence staring us in the face that Europeans also ionvented modern Assyrians...Dr Joseph didn't make this up...there are documents that show the process...you can date it's beggining and follow those who wrote in favor of this and those who denied it...it is your fear that keeps you from honestly evaluating the evidence..it doesn't have to be absolute...scholarship doesn't deal in absolutes...your church does.

The evidence laid out there is open to review...and to challenge...there are no heresies here...no condemnation. Dr Joseph has never written a word insulting or condemning or refusing to entertain contrary points of view...he, and other scholars, have merely asked you people for some documentation...and you have none...and you know it. Hence your attempts to discredit or belittle the messenger.
>
>“the ones who were real Assyrians...who spoke and wrote an Assyrian language and not the Aramaic one we speak.”
>
>***Language EVOLVES just like everything else, and Aramaic EVOLVED from the Assyrian language, just like the Assyrian language evolved from the Akkadian, the Akkadian from the Sumerian and so on.. .

..it did not. You can say French evolved from Latin...but French didn't evolve from Gaelic. Aramaic is not the evolution of Akkadian, it is a separate language developed by a separate people...these are mere statements you think prove a point, again, with no documentation whatsoever...just like the clever statement that the "A" went "missing" from Syrian...which was ALWAYS known to be Assyrian...it was? Show how it was...and tell us how then any Greek word started with an "A"...as so many did and do.
>
>Furthermore, based on your logic, the English people today are not English, because they do not speak the same language English people spoke during the times of Shakespeare or prior to his time…? You need a lesson in logic boy…

...The Engish people of today are descended from many non-Anglo sources...the Danes, Vikings, Saxons and other Germanic and Celtic tribes, including Romans...modern English is a composite of many other languages...the English of today are not ethnically the same as the Angles...or the people of Albion.

...The English of today are English because they speak the ENGLISH language...to make the modern English of today the lineal and direct descendants of the very ancient Celts you can't say that modern English is a "form" of ancient Celtic...it ain't.

...the modern assyrians speak Aramaic, not Assyrian...as the modern Egyptians speak Arabic (their "Aramaic") and not Egyptian....no modern Egyptian thinks to prove he is descended from Rameses by pointing to Arabic as "the langauge of Rameses"...they know better...we don't. Ashurhaddon did not speak Aramaic...he spoke Assyrian. You don't speak Assyrian either...you speak Aramaic.

A modern Egyptian speaks Arabic, not the language of Rameses.
>
>“My connection to it is not genetic or biological.”
>
>***How in Ashur’s Name can you make a silly statement like that? Was the DNA testing done in your head? While floating on a cloud?

...I just said it isn't a matter of DNA...that infamous gene project didn't even appraoch the question of the ancients being connected to the moderns..in our haste and desperation many among us, even those who ordinarily would have know better....and eager to pluck at anything, belive that study proved their case...it never even ADDRESSED that question.

...There are people who claim direct descent from all sorts of people...generally they are thought to be deranged or hoplessly romantic...or desperate to fluff themselves up. There isn't a single test available tyhat would match your genes with those of Ashurbanipal..I'll leave it to you to guess why.

...We are Christians of the Middle East...that's all. Some of may FEEL a strong attraction to the ancient cultures...but I've yet to see anyting much except the confounding of Christianity with being Assyrian...and that argument is based on mush and foam.
>
>“The Assyrian monuments and sculpture I made were all ASSYRIAN and not Christian. It remains now to create other Bet-Nahrain based sculpture and take it out into the world....to begin to make the Assyrian heritage, the real one and not this Christian Mongolid Idiot thing we're plagued with, a part of the mainstream culture...or at least begin the process.”
>
>*** Good on you. I hope you will do that with your full heart’s passion to awaken our nation to it’s TRUE ASSYRIAN SELF and not as a means to tell them they are a NOBODY.

...no one said they are nobody. Dr Joseph's says quite the opposite...he says we have a long and proud history as Nestorians...many achievements and accomplishments and there was no need to attach this Assyrian monkey to our backs by deciding we were really the children of Ashurbanipal..this has made fools of us.

...He says, and I and many others agree, that we are NOT the lineal descendants of the ancients...and he has offered actual documented evidence to back this up...evidence you ALL admit to in the case of the modern Chaldeans...yet you refuse to use the same "logic" AND refuse to study the documentation, in your "assyrian" case. That's makes you all highly suspect right there.
>
>“We are not a nation but a gaggle of religious sects....our behavior confirms that in every way”
>
>***EVERY nation on the planet is made of religious sects, and we, my dear friend, are no different. The reason why we behave the way we do is because: unlike other nations, we do not have our own country. The highest institution we have and have had for a long time has been religious; that is why religion is uppermost in the general Assyrian mind... Get it?

..of course. But we do have countries...just as Muslims and Jews in America have a country...we are from the countries of Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Italy, France, England, America, Russia...we have MANY countries...we don't have an Assyria and we never will...."hoping" for it has led people, in just the last 100 years, to engage in foolish and dangerous behavior that is resulting in the disperal of even more of our people from OUR countries to western Christian countries....

...we are not only a gaggle of sects....we are a gaggle of sects who, at the time Wilson was clamoring of self-determination, decided to seize on this "we are Assyrians" buisness as the only way we might get a country for Christ...it has never fooled anyone...except us. We are no "nation"...we are certainly not an Assyrian nation....we are Christians, many of whom do not LIKE being of Muslim countries...while most of us learned to thrive and accepted the fact...it is these agitators, who hide their Jesus behind a "national" cause, who've done and continue to do the greatest damage to what had been OUR nations...and all of it for the glory of a Jewish knock-off religion and in the service of western countries who've destroyed BetNahrain.
>
>PLUS! Religion was the reason we glued to each other and survived, despite the horrendous circumstances we went through.

..it depends what you call surviving...I think Christianity used US to survive...we did not survive because of Christianity but IN SPITE of it.

Only fools don’t see that.

...I don't see it that way at all.

Now that we are here safe and sound (with the help of religion),

...you are? Then what Muslims said about you was true all along..what you cared for was to live in a Christian country..and since BetNahrain will never be converted to Christianity...you, not every Christian, but many like you feel more comfortable in Christian countries. You bear no love for BetNahrain..not if it remains Muslim...your prayers and efforts, by proxy, are to destroy Islam and Muslims with it...if you can't "save" BetNahrain...in your religious sense as saving it's "soul", you'd rather see it killed...like a daughter is considered dead to us if she marries a Muslim. What you fail to recognize, so steeped in your own prejudice, is that the world you want so desperately to "see our plight"..sees what knaves and opportunists you are...the world KNOWS you and the falsity of your claims...it has never been fooled.

it is time for our people to take the next step and see themselves as Ashuraye FIRST… That will be achieved by building on what we have and awakening through education… NOT by attempting to DESTROY our character…

...you are not Assyrians...I am not Assyrian. Not in the way you mean it. I have no claim to an inch of Iraq...not a single claim. Christianity also has nothing to do with real Assyrians...you cannot give up yahwe and remain Jewish...you can't give up Ashur and still be ASHUR-ian. I have great faith that it was their belief in Ashur, in that time a tolerant and demanding god who inspired the ancient Assyrians...who didn't only save THEM...but inspired them to develop civilization and saved IT!

...I don't need to revive the worship of Ashur...not directly. Instead I want to expand on that inspiration and see if it can be once again productive...if, under its example and influence: meaning as a tolerant Pagan, I can make it known to the world.

...and if I ever do, the first thing I'll do is explain the paltry tricks and cheap sleight-of-hand with which you Christians think to use the name of the ancients to get your Christlandia.
>
>Maybe we first need to take a course in logic…

....apparently you do...because refuting a book which you take great pride in not knowing its very title, is a poor way to begin.



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