The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: The Crux of the Turkish Genocide Debate.

Re: The Crux of the Turkish Genocide Debate.
Posted by Tiglath (Guest) - Monday, September 13 2010, 12:39:51 (UTC)
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>>And this is where you and I will have to differ.
>>The Turks were not defending their homeland during WW1. They were defending their colonies and maintaining their empire.
>
>..now who´s quibbling? You said I was when I said the Turks did not indulge in anything ear what the Nazis did...to you it was all the same...a genocide is a genocide...and now you give yourself the right to decide what constitures defending your country...you say it was their EMPIRE and their COLONIES they were defending...so what? What makes defense of ones empire...and remember now the definition of "indigenous" you brought us from the UN...the Ottomasn occupied their colonies and empire for more than 400 years, ergo, they were the indifenous people of ALL those territories...but even if that was not the case...it is up to them what is to be defended and what is not....the United States will defend Alaska, even though it was one of the last to join its EMPIRE.

The Young Tukrs were but one group within the entire Ottoman empire who managed to control and rule it based on tribute and taxes. It was nationalism that stirred the minorities to overthrow their rulers and dseel independence.

Also according to the Un definition of genocide;
"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

This means that Australia as far back as the 70s when I was brpn was committing genocide.

>...the fact, the relevant fact is that people legally subject to their own government, not the Allies, accepted pay and weapons to kill their fellow-citizens...they were all part of the Ottoma Empiure as every Apacheis part of the American Empire and they can no more take money and arms from Libya to attack the United States than can the Armenians and other Christians take weapons and money from the Brits to attack Turkey...ALL of Turkey or any part of it...the Turks took the lands of other peoples...as every nation and empire on earth has done, including the Assyrian Empire...do you think Ashurbanipal or Lincoln, would hesitate to attack anyone who threatened any part of their empires?
>

The ancient Assyrians only made examples of the ring leaders and relocated captives to the periphery of the empire. Assyrian soldiers were also tasked with caring for and providing for these new citizens with explicit warnings in cuneiform to the general in charge that he would forfeit his life if harm befell them. This is in stark contrast to the Ottomans and their treatment of captives.

>
>Having lost the Greek sector to the Greeks earlier they were determined not to allow the Armenian and Assyrioan minorities also follow suit.
>
>..of course...as is their right by every international law...we have to apply the same laws...not change the rules just because Muslims are involved with Christians...and the Christians lose.

What I'm trying to say is that men have a tendency to be free and as a result they will naturally seek independence. During the age of empires when europeans had defined their nation states and sought distant colonies the nationalism sickness spread tpo the Middle east and roused us to seek our freedom as well.

>...and on top of all that the Christian world is trying to pin a genocide on them!!! When THEY are the past masters at committing genocides, especially against other Christians.

Of that we both agree. Let's also remember that genocide is the eventual result of hyper-nationalism crossing with a Darwinian "survival of the fittest" Eugenics policy that sough to purify the homeland. No one did it better than the Germans in WW2 and it is no coincidence that it was the same Germans who were the propaganda arm of the Ottomans helping them "purify" their homeland.


>>
>>We can also use the same argument to state that the Iraqi and Afghan freedom fighters who today continue to resist US aggression are in fact also being treasonous in attempting to liberate their homelands. Or will you opinion of them change once they have actually kicked out the US invaders?
>
>...this is quite different...there is no government in Iraq or Afganhistan except a puppet of the United States'...this is hardly the same....we are not talking about how popular or kind a government is, just whether, by international law, it is the LEGAL government...there is no legal government in Iraq or Afghabnistan...we know that because they must be propped up by foreigners, while the government of Turkey was being ATTACKED by foreigners.

Although I would agree with you the majority in the Western world would disagree. Might makes right afterall.

>
>..every people on earth have the right and, as the US Constitution says, the DUTY to rise up against an oppresvive government...that doesn not mean you will be greeted as a liberator by that government...you will be a rebel, a revolutionary, you will be committing sedition and treason and if they catch your ass they are entitled to hang you, at the least...but, should you win you will be a hero and acclaimed throughout history, unless you´re Fidel Castro...this is the risk you take....this is the risk the Armenians and others took...and they lost and they knew full well what the penalty would be...that´s the way it goes in life.
>
>You have a right to rebel and the government you rebel against has an equal right to kill you for doing it. Did I really have to explain this?
>
>..one more thing and I´m sure you´re not going to pulla Bet-Shlmon, but couldyou respond to the point that Christians in major cities were left unmolested, free to work, free to run their businesses and free to worship?
>
>...does this not strike you as odd when there is a GENOCIDE taking place?

From my research this was not the case.
Not only were Christians such as Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians killed but it did not matter whether they were from the CofE or from the Chaldean or Syriac churches.

In addition even Yezidis and Shabaks were targeted and slaughtered by the thousands. You see it was a purification of the Ottoman empire.



Source: http://www.seyfocenter.com/index.php?sid=2&aID=36

Van and Diyarbakir provinces had the highest number of victims with 80,000 and 63,000 killed, respectively. Going to more detailed investigations, the Syrian Orthodox Church specified the killing of 90,313 believers including 154 of its priests and 7 bishops and the destruction of 156 church buildings.[2] The Chaldeans reported the loss of 6 bishops, 50 priests and 50,000 of its faithful.[3] The Nestorians were so decimated and dispersed that they never managed to present any detailed figures.


[2] Memorandum presented by Syrian Orthodox Archbishop of Syria Severius A. Barsaum on April 2, 1920 printed in Sébastien de Courtois,. The Forgotten Genocide. Eastern Christians, The Last Arameans. (Piscataway, N.J.: Gorgias Press 2004), 237-239.
[3] Emmanuel Thomas to Pope Benoit V July 6, 1919 Vatican Arcives, Archivo Segreto, AA.EE.SS. 1919 rubr. 12 fasc.1.



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