The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: The Outsider

Re: The Outsider
Posted by pancho (Moderator) - Thursday, July 10 2008, 2:37:48 (CEST)
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arrow wrote:
>pancho wrote:
>>...we've just crossed over the line from a rational discussion between two human beans while one of is howls at the moon...whether your god is Mugwhump or Jesus, you're from the same camp and there really isn't a rational basis for futher discussion...because evrything for you is going to end in heaven and at the feet of some imaginery ghost while I have to take responsibility for my own words and actions.
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>>...I wouldn't try a rational discussion with someone who believes in Mughwump, the great god, any more than I would with someone who replaced Mugwhump with Jesus....sorry.
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>Ok fine, as you wish, but I have few clarifications.

...very civilized of you. I mean to agree to disagree without getting out the long knives.
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>“as soon as bread and juice enter your mouth they are magically changed through "transubstantiation"...into REAL flesh and REAL blood....ask any Catholic who knows his religion”
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>There are many practices and beliefs that are an extension (not sure if it’s the right word) of the scriptures. There is the practice of praying while contemplating on an icon (I don’t remember the theological Jargon for it), there is the rosary…etc but those are not directly derived from the scriptures. Transubstantiation is a just a theory that attempts to explain what happens to the bread and wine, which may or may not be true, however the Eucharist is not a practical application of the scripture, i.e Christ did not mean that in order to have “eternal life” we must partake in the church's Holy Communion.

...'those are your words, not those of the Catholic Church with its billions of followers over 1500 years. Like I said, there is no need or desire to get into your Christian faith, what which of you believes...who said what to whom and whether or not the pope has the authority etc. All that matters is that the pope believes he does and so do the billions who listen to him. I don't care if they're right or wrong...I don't care if they're a little right, or very wrong. That, again, is discussing YOUR religion with you, and no one wants to do that. It isn't MY religion.

I'm a pagan and glad to be. I allow everyone to keep their beliefs...I call no one's religion right or wrong. I could care less...however, I DO care when I see one religion riding roughshod over the world...causing more wars and Holocausts than any other. I STILL don't care to discuss errors of beliefs, or refinements or any of it...all I'm concerned with is: do ANY of the teachings of this religion(and please remember I don;t care which of you has the right view of it)possibly lend themselves to a the kind of moral rot, I would call it, that allows a significant number, a few billion, of its folowers to get it "wrong" (if that's your claim, though I said I don't care if they're wrong or right)...and possibly lead them as adults to incite and/or participate in further murders from which they also derive benefits, such as eternal life and oil too.

Remember...I don;t care what YOU think of cannibalism...I only care that Catholics themselves say that it is REAL flesh and blood...and I remind you again that the entire "miracle" is that the priest can transform ordinary bread into the flesh of Jesus etc. This is what the Church authorities claim and insist upon..in fact only a few centuries ago you would have been burned at the stake for claiming that it WASN'T the real flesh of Jesus and that there was NO miracle in its transubstantiation...in fact, let me give you Merriam Webster's definition, which the world goes by, whether or not some individuals agree with it or not...when civilized people want to know the meaning and usage of words they refer to valid ddictionaries...

transubstantiation

Main Entry: tran·sub·stan·ti·a·tion
Pronunciation: \-ˌstan(t)-shē-ˈā-shən\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century

1 : an act or instance of transubstantiating or being transubstantiated

2 : the miraculous change by which according to Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox dogma the eucharistic elements at their consecration become the body and blood of Christ while keeping only the appearances of bread and wine

...as you can see, the bread and wine while maintaining the appearance of bread and wine, are changed, by the miracle performed by a priest, into real flesh and blood. The Church believes this and its followers also believe it. What does it matter, to THIS discussion, whether or not Jesus meant it that way? This is not a comparative religion class...or a reform the church movement. I'm dealing in the ugly reality of what your Church has DONE...not what it "ought" to do, or "should" do, or "could" do.

I realize your view is different...but this discussion was never about which Christian dogma is the correct one...it doesn't matter at all. What matters, the only thing that matters, is that billions of Christians believe this and teach it to their children...it doesn't matter what YOU think Jesus "really meant"...because that doesn;t change anything...because they're STILL being taught these things, and will be, regardless of what you think about them.

The discussion was NOT a dig at your faith...so there's no need for you to explain it better, or apologize for it or excuse it...take that up with your church, not me. All I'm saying is that crimes are being taught to children in the guise, or under the heading, of religion and, worse, a religion of "love"..and I say, again, that the confounding or marriage or combination of love with murder...can have tragic consequences for a society.

Nothing you've written has shown that Christianity doesn't teach that it's REAL flesh and blood...you just want to argue with their interpretation.. But it's THEIR interpretation, not mine. Argue it out with them not with me.

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>“No one refers to the earth as a "circle"...”
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>Yes, but unlike in English, there is only one word for both a circle and a sphere in Hebrew. It’s like when we say “daa’irah” in Arabic.

...maybe...but we're speaking English here and when the bible was translated into English there was nothing in it to suggest anyone back then thought of it as being round...except for Greeks and a few other pagans...but the Church tried valiantly to destroy all pagan literature...it's thanks to Islam that these were preserved.

...The Church killed you for believing that the sun was at the center of our solar system...I serioudly doubt they got that one wrong but somehow figured out the world was a globe.
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>Anyway, see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_mythology


...I don't go to Wikipedia for anything.
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>“the Messiah had a very specfic mission; to lead the Hebrews, and only the Hebrews, to a superior position over the Romans and everyone else”
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>http://religi3.securesites.net/prophecies/isaiah.htm

...I also don't take the bible seriously....and I stopped reading comic books too.

...as a general rule we expect people who have something to say to post it here thesmselves and not send us elsewhere. If there is something you feel is important to the point you're trying to make...take the trouble to post it here yourself.

...the only person we make any allowances for is MiniMe, otherwise known as "arrow". We need at least one good clown, so we extend every courtesy to him. But one is enough. Other's will have to engage us as full-fledged adults. When a lawyer has important evidence for his trial, he doesn't tell the judge or prosecutor to run down to the law library and look it up...he's expected to present it himself. I'll do my job...you do yours.



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