The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: The Outsider

Re: The Outsider
Posted by pancho (Moderator) - Tuesday, July 8 2008, 1:11:17 (CEST)
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arrow wrote:
>"Jews were his disciples...his father and mother were Jews, his siblings were Jews, his wealthy patrons were Jews, the women who wept over him were Jews...the crowds that followed him and wept at the cross were Jews. His god was a Jewish god and his country was filled with Jews.
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>Okay okay I know, I was just quoting the verse. But the general idea is the same whether it said Romans or Jews.

...yes but what WAS the general idea? The general idea was that SOMEONE had to kill Jesus for you. For you to get to heaven...and, I'm saying...that if no one else had been found willing to do it...any Christian alive today, including you, would have rushed to crucify Christ...because the promise he represented could ONLY come to you through his murder....THAT is the central issue...that Christianity is a religion which confuses murder with love...or makes murder a precondition for resurrection etc etc.

..it's the insertion of crimes such as murder, cannibalism, vampirism, accesory after the fact to murder plus the other things like cadavers in church and death dealing inetruments round children's necks that are not only disgusting and worthy of condemnation by any civilived people...but could go a long way to explaining the toxic levels of violence among Christians and directed at others by Christians.

..it is in these truly "unique" ways that Christianity stands out from all other modern religions...
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>"they accused the innocent Jews of THEIR crimes"
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>If you say it had to happen, how could anyone be accused?

..I didn't say it...your God said it.
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>"...and why blame Judas?"
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>He knew who he was. But with Judas, it’s a different story; it isn’t blame.

...like I said; I've no interest to dissect Christianity with you...to decide whether or not the pope is anti-christ...or Martin Luther is a heretic....as far as I'm concerned you're ALL pretty much the same..and the things of concern about Christian dogma are shared by most of you...the Catholic Church may be evil to you...but billions of Christians fervently believe it's the one true way,,,as other millions feel totally differently. I could care less....all I'm interested in are those characteristics and teachings which truly make Christianity, ANY version of it, so damn violent and bloodthirsty.
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>“Had it not been for his self-sacrifice in offering up his reputation to be damned for eternity...Jesus would not have been killed”
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>Whether with the help of Judas or not, they already made their decision prosecute him, sooner or later.

...you skip the central point each time...and it isn't by accident. I've noticed all you born-agains do that. The point is that in order for you to reach Paradise SOMEONE had to murder Jesus for you...this ressurrection you're so pleased with could ONLY come after the murder of Jesus. It's just ironic that the Romans who killed him wound up blaming the Jews for it.
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>“you LOVE that he was murdered for you”
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>If say our soldiers died defending us, does that mean that we love that they died for us?

....that's very different. Soldiers have a chance...it isn't a sure thing that they will be killed...and you, or anyone else, could choose to be soldeirs with them...this is the case of a totally innocent man, whose "loving" father says he MUST be killed, in about the most barbaric manner possible, in order that YOU can get into heaven.

...If I came to you and said that I would murder someone in order to get you his watch, which he would never surrender in any other way than by being killed..and you accepted it...then you would be guilty, with me, in the eyes of the law..and thank goodnness it is so...thank goodness that your god doesn't rule one arth.

..Jesus wasn't "defending" anyone. Not a blessed thing changed the day after he was killed...there was as much whoredoms and fornications as the day before and it's been going on that way since..and incresaingly so, in large part thanks to Christians...so the whole idea of Jesus dying for our sins was a bust from day one...our sins continued...it was a useless gesture...Jesus eas murdered in vain.
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>“that too might explain why Christians seem to thrive on murdering even more innocents”
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>Huh?

...well, if you can make a religion out of killing the "scapegoat", as a way of letting yourselves of the hook, because you yearn after the "goodies"; in this case eternal life...maybe you won't mind killing a whole lot of innocents in order to get other goodies...like oil, maybe? I'm saying it's a bad habit to get into. It should matter a great deal to young adults what they have to do or, accept to be done in THEIR name and for THEIR benefit...the reward, as great as it is; Heaven or a gold watch, should not decide morality.
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>“But if you're under sentence of death, whether for Adam's indiscretion or for any other reason..and you choose someone else to die in your place, THAT is both a legal and a moral crime”
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>Who set the laws? It is God that chooses, not us.

...sorry. Thisd is a fantasy of yours and a few billion others. Law deals in facts, on earth. We don't live by god's laws, thank goodness.

And when did we choose? If I believe that Jesus suffered and died for me doesn’t mean that I am an accomplice in his death; that if I’d go back in time then I would really wanted to hand him over. Crucifixion was inevitable by God’s will and not by ours.

..that's a clever cop-out...like the Crusaders who repeated the same phrase, "As God Wils" every time they did what THEY willed.


...we've just crossed over the line from a rational discussion between two human beans while one of is howls at the moon...whether your god is Mugwhump or Jesus, you're from the same camp and there really isn't a rational basis for futher discussion...because evrything for you is going to end in heaven and at the feet of some imaginery ghost while I have to take responsibility for my own words and actions.

...I wouldn't try a rational discussion with someone who believes in Mughwump, the great god, any more than I would with someone who replaced Mugwhump with Jesus....sorry.
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>“we should add that it is only your sect which belives Jesus was only human”
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>I’m a Catholic, but I don’t really know what my church teaches. I’m just coming up with my own interpretation.

....thank you for admitting that your religion and indeed all of them, comes down to "...coming up with my own interpretation". The difference between us is that I depend on my rational mind and you surrenders yours....when push comes to shove, you can run inside and hide behind God's apron...while I stand out on my own.
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> “ That isn't the way billions of Christians see it...who disagree with you. To them the flesh is real, the blood is real...and you can imitate Christ all you want but if you don;t eat the meat and drink the blood you don't get into heaven”
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>Which cult is that?

..your Catholic Church...ask any priest...ask your pope.

I said before that this is an allegory, which is “a representation of an abstract or spiritual meaning through concrete or material forms” (dictionary.com). I don’t think any church doubts that.

...no it isn't. That's you again, "interpreting" for yourself. We posted a letter earlier from the top Cardinal in the States clearly explaioning that the Eucharist is NOT symbollic, or allegorical but most REAL! That the wafer and wine may start out as bread and grape juice but, and here is the reason it is called the MIRACLE of the REucharist; when the priest does his thing, as soon as bread and juice enter your mouth they are magically changed through "transubstantiation"...into REAL flesh and REAL blood....ask any Catholic who knows his religion.
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>“our only interest and concern is with the billions throughout history who have been taught, and who've taught their children, that to gain the reward of Paradise, good behavior, even Christ-like behavior is not enough..you can do all of that but you MUST also eat and drink”
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>That’s flatly wrong. Eat and drink in a metaphorical sense, yes, but being “saved” by consuming a human flesh doesn’t make sense, and sounds ludicrous. It seems you have never opened the bible.


...the bible is a mess of contradictions..the four gospels disagree on crucial points and as we all know the Devil may quote scripture to his purpose...I suggest that you're the one who doesn't know your RELIGION...according to all Catholic teaching..and I don;t think you're a Catholic at all, a Christian MUST partake of the Eucharist, or no paradise, and the meat and blood are REAL..not symbollic at all....I'll try to find that letter...but ask any priest.
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>“what does that have to do with it? There was no mention of Christ among the people before there was...so? Please...do NOT tell me what it says "in the Bible" as if it has any historical or factual basis. Just because something hasn't been mentioned so far doesn't mean it won't be or shouldn't be. Your "brilliant" Biblical people thought the world was flat, they "never mentioned" that it was round, can we use that as the basis for discrediting ALL they said? Is it flat because they "never mentioned" that it was round?...and I'm hardly the first one to point this out. You'll admit that your church had a way of cooking people who argued with it"
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>Sorry I didn’t get that. I just asked why Eucharist hasn’t been formally criticized by philosophers, sociologists, or others.

...I'm certain that it has.
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>Actually the bible does imply that the earth is round: Isaiah 40:22 “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth).

...a circle isn't a globe...a circle is a flat surface with no third dimension. No one refers to the earth as a "circle"...come on. The earth is a GLOBE.
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>“obviously not into the kinds of criminals who could round up six million completely innocent people and murder them all...or start world wars...or travel 10,000 miles from their borders to attack a completely innocent nation, or two; Vietnam and Iraq”
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>What do these wars have to do with Christianity? Nazis were not Christian,


..of course they were..and are. The Church taught for centuries that Jews murdered Jesus...this is Christian teaching and Hitler and the rest of them attended church as children.


and war in Iraq is economical, so were the colonial wars.


...yes but God is the banner and often the excuse...are you serious? You actually think Africans and Latins CHOSE Jesus? This religion served as the ecuse, the cover-up, the pretense and the best manner of destroying native populations...of course there's an economic angle...but in Iraq you'll hear lots of generals and soldiers too mouthing Christian cant about how their religion is superior and Islam is of the devil etc.
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>“If anything Muslims have been extremely patient and forebearing”
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>Yes they are, but you can’t compare the behavior of developed industrialized nations with countries who are barely able to run themselves.

...who made them "barely able"? Do you have any idea what Christian nations did to indigenous peoples around trhe world? The number of cultures destroyed, the people made into slaves and zombies...only to be held up later on as examples of how "incapabale" they are..and "always were"?
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>“if you turn the other cheek to a Christian, he'll smack you even harder”
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>Then he’s not a Christian.

...yes but HE disagrees with you! Iraq smacked no one in America and this Christian nation is beating the hell out of the people. It may suit you to excommunicate a Christian every time he behaves badly...but that's no consolation to his victims..to them he's ALL the Christian they ever want to meet.
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>“And that was never part of the role of the Messiah...the Messiah was a Jewish idea, because they NEEDED rescue”
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>Rescue from what? From the Roman occupation? These are earthly issues. Christ came for a much more important cause.

...not if he was supposed to be the Messiah....the Messiah had a very specfic mission; to lead the Hebrews, and only the Hebrews, to a superior position over the Romans and everyone else...the Messiah, the original version, would be the king of a kingdom ON EARTH...the heaven thing came later, when Jesus failed to show up...some Messiah; he comes, gets killed and then says "I'll be back". You wouldn't hire a plumber on that basis...but a "savior"?



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