The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: The Xenophone Challenge...

Re: The Xenophone Challenge...

Posted by Maggie (Guest) - Friday, February 23 2007, 22:27:07 (CET) from 70.135.113.111 - 70.135.113.111 - Windows XP - Internet Explorer Website: Website title:

It is interesting how you keep starting new threads to avoid MY challenge to you and Dr. Joseph. I challenged you first and said, LET DR. JOSEPH SCIENTIFICALLY PROVE, THAT WE ARE NOT ASSYRIANS. Of course, you did NOT meet this challenge, but came up with another challenge for ME, as if I have MORE time to kill than you, never mind that you are probably luxuriating in some beach resort, drinking an ice cold beer, and wanting to kill time, while I work full-time, go to school full-time, clean house, shop, cook, do laundry, and homework. When I first read this last post of yours, I was going to reply to your challenge this way: I will take up your challenge ONLY if you prove that Dr. Joseph scientifically proves the fact that we are not Assyrians. But since I already KNOW that he could never prove what he is saying, I will indulge you. Fortunately for you, I have read Anabasis, better known as March Up Country, by Xenephon, and it is nothing more than a diary kept by Xenephon that describes the Peloponesian Wars during the Achaemenid period. It is a description of the battle of Cunaxa, (not sure of the spelling) where Xenephon as a soldier and a mercenary is elected as the new leader of the Ten Thousand Man Army, drawn-up together by Cyrus, to get the throne from his brother Artaxeres, (not sure of the spelling). While the entire diary is set during this battle, in an era that Assyria was no longer referred to her original name, but her successive name, the Persian empire, the Median Empire, the Babylonian Empire, etc. there is no mistaking that Xenephon is referring to Assyria, when he uses these other titles, as corroborated in his later works. Dr. Joseph is correct in saying in Anabbasis he doesn't refer to it as "Assyria" but that is because this particular body of work ONLY deals with the conquest made by the the Medians and the Persians, which by then Assyria was being referred to as the Persian Empire. This is why he doesn't refer to it as Assyria in this particular book. But you would be surprised to know that although he was Athenian and a Greek citizen, Xenephon never refers to these titles during the entire time he writes these diaries. He calls himself Hellenian, the battles of Hellenia, and calls the Greek people Hellenian. Does that mean Xenephon was NOT Greek or born and raised in Greece? Of course not! Furthermore, in Anabasis, Xenephon is not dealing with the entire Assyrian Empire, but parts of it, the parts Cyrus conquers innitially. But in one instance, Xenephon does say, the "the thousand man army marched through the Zagros Mountains, crossing the Great Zab, through the Assyrian Heartland, with Armenia to one side of it". In this book, he also keeps referring to the Chaldeans as the Chalybes tribe, (maybe that's how we extracted the recent name "Kalbo-Assyrians"). No one knows for sure what "Greek" words Xenephon actually used to describe the inahbitants of Mesopotamia in Anabasis, but he does use the word Mesopotamia, and as Assyrians we have used this term since time immemorial to describe ourselves and Assyria, when we use the term Bet-Nahrain, which means Mesopotamia. Conseqently, Dr. Joseph and others can only guess the reasoning behind Xenephon's usage of words, or the translators usage of words to describe Xenephon's words. But I ask this question to TRY to understand Dr. Joseph's motives. WHY does Dr. Joseph only cite Anabasis to prove his methodology? Granted, let's just forget the translators of Xenephon in Anabasis for a minute. WHY is that the only source used by Dr. Joseph??? Why not Xenephon's other works where he clearly uses the terms Assyria and Assyrian over and over again! Also, why doesn't Dr. Joseph use other sources and other writers, who have referred to Assyria by its proper name and title? Who is being selective here? For example, in Educating Cyrus, Xenephon uses the words Assyria and Assyrians hundreds of times. This work was written by Xenephon during the same period as Anabasis. So what is Dr. Joseph's point? and WHY is he being selective in his sources? That means he is TRYING to prove something persoanl to HIMSELF only, not to the rest of the world, when the rest of the world KNOWS damn well all about Assyria, and the Assyrians. WHY does Dr. Joseph ONLY use Xenephon and Anabasis, out of hundreds of historians who have written about Assyria and the Assyrians? WHO IS SELCETIVE? Here are some quotes by Xenephon from the Educating Cyrus: "Now this was the state in which Cyrus found the tribes and peoples of Asia when, at the head of a small Persian force, he started on his career. The Medes and the Hyrcanians accepted his leadership willingly, but it was through conquest that he won Syria, Assyria, Arabia, Cappadocia, the two Phrygias, Lydia, Caria, Phoenicia, and Babylonia. Then he established his rule over the Bactrians, Indians, and Cilicians, over the Sakians, Paphlagonians, and Magadidians, over a host of other tribes the very names of which defy the memory of the chronicler; and last of all he brought the Hellenes in Asia beneath his sway, and by a descent on the seaboard Cyprus and Egypt also." Here's another one: " . And Cyrus was ever in the front, like a young hound, untrained as yet but bred from a gallant stock, charging a wild-boar recklessly; forward he swept, without eyes or thought for anything but the quarry to be captured and the blow to be struck. But when the Assyrian army saw their friends in trouble they pushed forward, rank on rank, saying to themselves the pursuit would stop when their own movement was seen. [22] But Cyrus never slackened his pace a whit: in a transport of joy he called on his uncle by name as he pressed forward, hanging hot-foot on the fugitives, while Cyaxares still clung to his heels, thinking maybe what his father Astyages would say if he hung back, and the others still followed close behind them, even the faint-hearted changed into heroes for the nonce." And another one: "Now Astyages, watching their furious onslaught, and seeing the enemy move steadily forward in close array to meet them, decided to advance without a moment's delay himself, for fear that his son and Cyrus might come to harm, crashing in disorder against the solid battalions of the foe. [23] The Assyrians saw the movement of the king and came to a halt, spears levelled and bows bent, expecting that, when their assailants came within range, they would halt likewise as they had usually done before. For hitherto, whenever the armies met, they would only charge up to a certain distance, and there take flying shots, and so keep up the skirmish until evening fell. But now the Assyrians saw their own men borne down on them in rout, with Cyrus and his comrades at their heels in full career, while Astyages and his cavalry were already within bowshot. It was more than they could face, and they turned and fled. After them swept the Medes in full pursuit, and those they caught they mowed down, horse and man, and those that fell they slew. There was no pause until they came up with the Assyrian foot." And another: "Now in the fullness of time Astyages died in Media, and Cyaxares his son, the brother of Cyrus' mother, took the kingdom in his stead. By this time the king of Assyria had subdued all the tribes of Syria, subjugated the king of Arabia, brought the Hyrcanians under his rule, and was holding the Bactrians in siege. Therefore he came to think that, if he could but weaken the power of the Medes, it would be easy for him to extend his empire over all the nations round him, since the Medes were, without doubt, the strongest of them all. [3] Accordingly he sent his messengers to every part of his dominions: to Croesus, king of Lydia, to the king of Cappadocia, to both the Phrygias, to the Paphlagonians and the Indians, to the Carians and the Cilicians. And he bade them spread slanders abroad against the Persians and the Medes, and say moreover that these were great and mighty kingdoms which had come together and made alliance by marriage with one another, and unless a man should be beforehand with them and bring down their power it could not be but that they would fall on each of their neighbours in turn and subdue them one by one. So the nations listened to the messengers and made alliance with the king of Assyria: some were persuaded by what he said and others were won over by gifts and gold, for the riches of the Assyrian were great. [4] Now Cyaxares, the son of Astyages, was aware of these plots and preparations, and he made ready on his side, so far as in him lay, sending word to the Persian state and to Cambyses the king, who had his sister to wife. And he sent to Cyrus also, begging him to come with all speed at the head of any force that might be furnished, if so be the Council of Persia would give him men-at-arms. For by this time Cyrus had accomplished his ten years among the youths and was now enrolled with the grown men. [5] He was right willing to go, and the Council of Elders appointed him to command the force for Media. They bade him choose two hundred men among the Peers, each of them to choose four others from their fellows. Thus was formed a body of a thousand Peers: and each of the thousand had orders to raise thirty men from the commons--ten targeteers, ten slingers, and ten archers--and thus three regiments were levied, 10,000 archers, 10,000 slingers, and 10,000 targeteers, over and above the thousand Peers. The whole force was to be put under the command of Cyrus. [6] As soon as he was appointed, his first act had been to offer sacrifice, and when the omens were favourable he had chosen his two hundred Peers, and each of them had chosen their four comrades. Then he called the whole body together, and for the first time spoke to them as follows." And lastly, before I get tired. ""Listen, then," said Cyaxares. [5] "Croesus the Lydian is coming, we hear, with 10,000 horse and more than 40,000 archers and targeteers. Artamas the governor of Greater Phrygia is bringing, they say, 8000 horse, and lancers and targeteers also, 40,000 strong. Then there is Aribaius the king of Cappadocia with 6000 horse and 30,000 archers and targeteers. And Aragdus the Arabian with 10,000 horse, a hundred chariots, and innumerable slingers. As for the Hellenes who dwell in Asia, it is not clear as yet whether they will send a following or not. But the Phrygians from the Hellespont, we are told, are mustering in the Caystrian plain under Gabaidus, 6000 horse and 40,000 targeteers. Word has been sent to the Carians, Cilicians, and Paphlagonians, but it is said they will not rise; the Lord of Assyria and Babylon will himself, I believe, bring not less than 20,000 horse, and I make no doubt as many as 200 chariots, and thousands upon thousands of men on foot; such at least has been his custom whenever he invaded us before." So one might ask, what does ALL this PROVE? Nothing, absolutely NOTHING! Except that Dr. Joseph IS SELECTIVE in his sources, and is an opportunist. --------------------- - BACK TO INDEX - REPLY - QUOTE - EDIT - DELETE -

The full topic: The Xenophone Challenge... pancho - Friday, February 23 2007, 16:36:24 (CET) Re: The Xenophone Challenge... Maggie - 02/23 22:27 Re: The Xenophone Challenge... pancho - 02/24 01:41 Re: The Xenophone Challenge...response pancho - 02/24 16:22

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