The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: Yes Arrow, God Is Fantasy

Re: Yes Arrow, God Is Fantasy
Posted by Arrow (Guest) - Tuesday, March 6 2012, 2:46:25 (UTC)
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I can see you have profound scientific insight. I'm afraid I reached the limit of my knowlege on the subject. You seem to be a physics major, and so you've delved into details that are beyond my scope. But I'm glad we have future scientist here.

You have provided information that I was not aware of before. For example, I thought that the idea that the universe is "fine tuned" has already been agreed upon among astronomers. Also you used technical terms, such as "quantum uncertainty principle", "virtual particle pairs", "kinetic Energy"... etc. Anyway, I enjoyed reading your response.

Quantum fluctuations were the first cause and "prime mover" of the Universe. The Universe prior to the inflationary expansion event, was in a quantum state.

As I understand, quantum flunctuations existed since eternity and those fluctuations were the cause for the Big Band singularity? If so, then do they continually create unverses on the long term?

>Conclusion: either there is an infinite chain of causes, or there was a first cause. That first cause has to have the unique property of being uncaused. 

Your conclusion is a non-sequitur, because your first premise is false.

Which first premise? That a material event cannot cause itself?

Why can't there be an infinite chain of causes? And why is that impossible

I didn't say there can't be. I said "since the universe had a beginning, we can say that there was no infinit chain..."

Also, how can an unfathomably complex, supernatural and conscious being exist uncaused?

For the same reason that energy or quantum flunctuation exist uncaused.

We know from observing organisms on this planet, that complexity arises from simplicity.

We are assuming here that God is like an organism, composed of atoms and particles, and therefore he has a shape, dimension, and a degree of complexity. The idea here is that he is not composed of any material objects.

Also, consciousness is a byproduct of chemical reactions in the brain, so how can something that exists outside of existence have a brain?

Human consciousess is a byproduct of chemical reaction. Divine consciousness doesn't have to be.

... By the way, I wasn't aware that it is an Hawking quote was incomplete. I haven't read the book actually. I got the quote from a different source.

But he does say "if the universe is...". So, so far we are talking about "if"... about theories... plausible yes, but that has not been confirmed or agreed upon yet. The question is, has science reached to a point where we can say with almost certainty that there is no God?



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