The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Reply To Don or......

Reply To Don or......

Posted by pancho (Guest) - Tuesday, February 27 2007, 21:20:54 (CET) from 189.162.77.142 - dsl-189-162-77-142.prod-infinitum.com.mx Mexico - Windows XP - Internet Explorer Website: Website title:

..it`s that Assyrian bulge in your genes again. ...No, not stabbing Farid. Just taking a stab at the subject at hand. Now, don't mind me. Before I get to the meat, I just want to babble a little bit. I want to thank you for this. You have renewed something in me. You are a voice of dissent I have come to appreciate. I will enjoy this...enjoy every bit of this debate. ..that's so good to know...for all our sakes. As I said, I don't put all my eggs in one basket. I will not say that what I am about to post is the end-all, be-all. But every one of you reading this, and every one of you that has been keeping up with Farid's posts will see that even if this does not defeat Farid's argument (I actually agree on some of the points), it sure as a hell raises MORE questions. So you see, this will take time. Here is my belief which I will state again: ...and I look forward to reading it and considering it etc. May I just point though that Dr. Joseph has not only stated a "belief"...he has included sources and others in the field to lend some substance...but I read on with eager delight. I believe that the people in Northwestern Iran, all of Iraq, Kuwait, Southwestern Turkey, Syria, part of Lebanon, and Jordan, are ethnically Assyrian. I believe that we are the same people and have over time accepted different faiths and at times switched between faiths. ...this is exactly the problem...that there is no way to prove such a hypothesis and so it remains in the realm of "faith" which, if you'll remember we raised in for almost everything we "believe"...both religion and our ethnic claims. The piece in question is the following. Several years ago, Dr. Joel J. Elias, Professor (Emeritus) at the University of California School of Medicine, San Francisco, wrote an article entitled, “The Genetics of Modern Assyrians and their Relationship to Other People of the Middle East.” In it, he spoke extensively about DNA evidence that was conducted by a well-known Professor of Genetics (and his team) from Stanford University, Dr. Cavalli-Sforza. The findings of this geneticist (who was the senior author) were compiled and published in a book entitled, The History and Geography of the Human Genes, published in 1994. I have checked this book out before from the library. It is HUGE. I wanted to scan it but only got a little bit done and had to return it before the deadline. I will be pulling it out again. Nevertheless, I want to share Dr. Joel J. Elias’ article with you all. Keep in mind, just like I decided to put aside my prejudice that years ago Dr. Joseph was openly supporting the combined name crap at the command and payment of the chaldean catholic church and LISTENED to his argument via his ambassador Farid, put aside any prejudices any of you may have when reading this and think about it…soak it in. I meditated on this for a LONG time: ...okay and just to show you what a fool I can be...I too am going to declare, without reading first...that Dr Ellias most definitely got it wrong...for which as "proof" ahead of time, I'll cite Phrenology, Freudian Analysis, trepanning the skull and several other such "science". which with the passagfe of time turned out to be, like the "biological" argument for the "native" inferiority of women, based on nothing more than pure emotions...BUT the emotions of the male animal, the only scientist ever allowed till recently...who mistook his damaged, much feared and repressed-because-he-might-wear-adress-next emotional state...because it was largely dead and submerged in his equally lop-sided "intellect"...as "real wisdom and manly rationality" ...and as to Stanford, their reseacrhers came up with Stanford-Binet IQ test which consigned Darkies to the ash heap for decades because they "proved" that we were "biologically" less than whites...when the entire "test" had ben written by these same whites and was nothing more than a CULTURAL test, thiers...that mistake has been dumped...it as also a Stanford scientist or two actually who came up with that travesty of a book entitles "The Bell Curve" which was once again, emotional need masquerading as science...which was quickly laughed out of court...but let us proceed. The Genetics of Modern Assyrians and their Relationship to Other People of the Middle East by Dr. Joel J. Elias - Professor (Emeritus) University of California School of Medicine, San Francisco The authors of the book "The History and Geography of Human Genes"1, published in 1994, and the abridged version in 1962, took on the monumental task of analyzing the vast number of research articles written about genetic properties of different human populations. The senior author, Prof. L.L. Cavalli-Sforza, Professor of Genetics at Stanford University, is considered one of the preeminent human population geneticists in the world, a field that he has been working in for over forty years. After eight years of collecting this massive information, the authors spent several more years doing the genetic and statistical analyses using sophisticated computer methods. The objective was nothing less than to define the genetic variations in the entire human population of the world and, from that information, to trace the origin and migration of modern humans to their present locations on the planet (hence the "History and Geography" in the title). ...so far this relates what their intent was.... As the American Journal of Human Genetics stated, "This book represents a landmark in biology. There is nothing of its kind... where the evolutionary history of a single species possessing a cosmopolitan distribution is distilled from genetic, morphological, and cultural data. ...there's your first stumbling block...one you didn't see because you are more than happy to believe a "bioilogical" and thererfore scientific test can determine anything about "culture"... It represents an essential historical source for all human biologists ... " And as the New York Times said, "Perhaps more than anyone else in his field, Dr. Cavalli-Sforza ... has been able to make sense of the whisperings of human ancestors that are recorded in the genes of present-day people." ...I can see already this will be a cake-walk and am so glad you put it here. For their study, the authors chose to use data from only those populations that had been in the same geographic area for at least 500 years. ..your next stumbling block. They considered them as the native indigenous people of an area ("aboriginal") that could be used to trace human population origins, relationships and migrations. ..at this next block you just tripped and feel over Dr Ellias who, when I heard him deliver this nonsense as proof of anything to do with our ridiculous claims...had a sort of wild and scary light shining in his eyes. From analysis of the genes in these populations, it became possible to determine not only the genetic makeup of a people and the genetic relationships of different groups to each other, but also to measure the "genetic distance" between them. ..remember who the "them" are...as stated above when describing the test population...they were people from 500 years back, no more, who were ASSUMED...ASSUMED to be "the native indigenous people of an area"...and right there, Sforza Jones and dr Elias and the New York Times have all pointed out to us exactly what Dr Joseph contends...that the people ON the land...and for only 500 years...were ASSUMED to be the ones UNDER the land...which, if this is to have any meaning for our claims to ancient and lineal descent is as useful as the Good Shit Lollypop. The analyses showed that there were sufficient data to provide statistically significant information on the genetic characteristics of 491 different human populations. Assyrians were one of them3-6. ...do you see the problem now? Do you see how this is called "begging the question"...you are providing a "scientific study" everyone wet their pants over, because it already ASSUMES what YOU wnat it to prove...this study could NEVER make the claim that the people they too ASSUME to be Assyrians, because who's going to pop our cherry on this..are in ANY way related to any original people, not even five hundred and ONE years ago...while we thought they said they would prove we modern Assyrians are genetically and DNAally related to the Assyrians of TWO THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED YEARS AGO. They are taking for granted what they themselves have not PROVEN...had they read Dr Joseph's book, they would no doubt, being from an IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL, realized their error and corrected their reseach in regard to us to call us Nestorians of various sects...maybe I{lls end this guy the book when I{m through and ask him,as a favor to the only Assyrian to ever build two public Assyrian monuments and should KNOW WHAT I KNOW, to modify his claima accordingly...I said earlier that this modern business makes fools of us all...even professors in the SCIENCES... In this article, we will focus on the knowledge that has been gained about Assyrians and the genetic relationships between Assyrians and their neighbors, with the hope that it will lead to better understanding between the people of the Middle East. ..it may well do that...but not for any Assyrians...but for Nestorian Iraqis etc. Members of a specific human population, for example an ethnic group, identify with each other by a shared language and also by cultural, religious, social, geographic, and other features which are held in common. They distinguish themselves from other groups by the same criteria. What are "hidden" from external view are genetically determined attributes of the type that are only brought into the light by scientific methods such as those described in this book, ..this has been tried so many times before..it is nothing more than a sop thrown to our Judo'Christo nonsense every so often..and its real intent is to bolster claims that women are STILL and can STILL be proven to have certain etc etc and etc. Same thing scientists..and it is no wonder none of us want to speculate about who pays them...as corporate america and war mongering america pay so many such scientists to conduct such stupid research...I have no doubt , if thie is swallowed whole and it has been..that another study will come out, using THIS one as its source, that Blacks are,a fter all and SURPRISINGLY defineable and trackabale by their GENES...but not for their kinky hair and black skin..but for their AGRESSIVE anti SLAVE behavior...watch. and they reveal a very important component of a group - its genetic character. This can provide both a genetic definition of a group and also its relationships to other groups that would not be apparent otherwise. The use of language along with genetics to define groups is very useful, but linguistic change can occur much faster than genetic change and "languages are sometimes replaced by others of totally different origin in a very short time", as will be pointed out later in this article. As the authors state, "Only genes almost always have the degree of permanence necessary for discussing" the changes in populations that took place in the history of our species. ...genetic change, unless it is a mutation does NOY happen all that often. I have attempted the difficult task of presenting this information for the general reader in a concise way without compromising accuracy. Technical terms placed in parentheses are informative but not essential to understanding the basic ideas. ..you bet they aren{t...heres a useful term RACIST...try it on for size. But one technical element is crucial to the understanding of this information and I must briefly discuss it here. The chemical substance that makes up genes is DNA. A specific gene controlling the formation of a specific product may undergo a chemical alteration in its DNA ("mutation"). ...do you see what this scientist has done...nothing more sophisticated than the old switcheroo any con man at a flea bitten circus perfoms when he switches prizes on you...he said above that genes above that genes and only genes [almost always have the necessary degree of permanence...and next he{s talking about mutated genes, which cna change as often as he needs to imply the other kind could..when they dont...not in 500 years especially. The product that it forms will then also be altered. We now have two forms of the same gene ("alleles") in the population and different individuals can get different forms of the gene. In the case of the familiar A, B, AB, and O blood types, whether an individual has the A form of the gene, the B form, or neither, determines the blood type. ..these are normal blood types with those near permanent genes he just switched on us to mutated genes...helthy blood genes are NOT genetic mutations. A human population can be genetically characterized by determining the distribution of the various forms of genes within that population ("gene frequency") - for example, what percentage of the population has the A, B, or O gene. ..in a politico-war scam always follow the money, in this bio scam, follow the mutating gene as it mutates back and forth into a permament gene and then a rapidly mutating gene...right before your eyes. When this is done for enough people and for enough different genes a "genetic profile" emerges for that population. Genes control the synthesis of proteins. In the "classical" studies that form the greater part of the material in the Cavalli-Sforza et al. book, the structure of the protein is analyzed as a genetic marker - the specific structure of the protein reflects the specific structure of the gene that codes for it. The proteins commonly analyzed as genetic markers are those that determine various types of blood groups, enzymes, blood serum proteins, hemoglobin, antibodies and cellular markers of the immune system (HLA system). In addition, direct analysis of DNA has recently become increasingly common and, of course, adds to the information pool about the genetic makeup of a people. In his very recent book2a, Cavalli-Sforza says: "Results with DNA have complemented but never contradicted the protein data." An example of DNA analysis will be seen later as part of the discussion of Jewish genetics. ...BINGO...any gene that can detect Jewishness...aside from assumptins about NORMAL genes, like blood, which might MIGHT, like syckle cell anemia, a MUTATION found MOSTLY but not ONLy in Blacks...while switching to genetic mutations that MIGHT arise from Jewish food, especially gifelte fish...stinks. Analysis of the Assyrians shows that they have a distinct genetic profile that distinguishes their population from any other population. ...yes but he is ASSUMING again that he KNOWS he is dealing with what he THINKS are lineal descendants,,,by the same scam that Dr Joseph so clearly and cleanly points out...when the fool realizes that he{s dealing with a RELIGIOUS minority whowere ANNOINTED modern Assyrians...a minority made up of a hodge podge of OTHER etnic minority groups...he will know better. It is important to understand that this applies to the population as a whole, not to any one individual. Each individual can have a variety of genetic features, but it is when all the data for the individuals are assembled together that the population can become distinctive. The authors state that "The Assyrians are a fairly homogeneous group of people, ..this has ben STATED many times...what are his sources...since he is being so all fired scientific and all...where did he learn that there are Assyrians and they are mostly homogenous...from where...from Dr Ellias... believed to originate from the land of old Assyria in northern Iraq," ...you can see by now that this is what Dr Joseph was referring to...how one set of assumptions and beliefs, started largely because people were found ABOVE the ancient land of Assyria and were therefor ASSYRIANS..besides,w hat happened to limiting the test population to 500 years ago and no more... and "they are Christians and are possibly bona fide descendants of their namesakes." ...these are all unsubstantiated assumptions...I am surprised that Stanford would try this sort of thing again...maybe not...for it isnt the professors, it is the board and the CEOs who pay the salaries and provide those chairs...if this fellow was to make as many assumptions about eveything else in his study as he has aleady made about what he THINKS are POSSIBLY Assyrians...then his study is worth squat and is more a study of him and Stanford than anything else. The main research paper on Assyrians is that of Akbari et al. (3), who state "that the Assyrians are a group of Christians with a long history in the Middle East. From historical and archeological evidence, it is thought that their ancestors formed part of the Mesopotamian civilization." ...thought...assumed....maybe...this is science Akbari et al. examined some 100 members of Christian communities in Iran (Armenians and Assyrians from six localities) from whom specimens were obtained and examined for a number of blood group, red cell enzyme and serum protein systems. In the case of Assyrians, ..the whole point to Dr Jospeh{s book, which he backs up with much more than suppositions, is that the people he is referring to as Assyrians in this study were mistakenly called that by Europeans..that they themselves always called themselves Suyare or Suryoyo, as the Jacobites still do and as I rememebr everyone doing...until we went national.... the researchers studied 18 different gene sites with a total of 47 different forms of those genes (alleles) in Assyrians in two regions of Iran - Urmia and Tehran. The particular gene frequencies of those 47 genes in the population formed the basis, along with the other two studies (4, 5), for establishing the distinctive genetic character of the Assyrians. A major finding of the study is that Assyrians, especially those in Urmia (their home area in Iran), are genetically homogeneous to a high degree. ...you cannot assume the name of your test subjects..and then CONCLUDE that you were right about your assumptions...this man and no one else has any proof whatsovere and certainly no scientific proof that those people in his test ARE lineal descendants of the ancients..while there is much proof of the eror committed in ASSUMING them to be. That is, an individual Assyrian's genetic makeup is relatively close to that of the Assyrian population as a whole. "The results indicate the relatively closed nature of the [Assyrian] community as a whole," and "due to their religious and cultural traditions, there has been little intermixture with other populations." The small size of the population is also a factor. The genetic data are compatible with historical data that religion played a major role in maintaining the Assyrian population's separate identity during the Christian era. ..this is where culture comes in...not science..if it was our CULTURE to mary and intermarry freely in THOSE CHRISTIAN villages among the MUSLIMS AND KURDS..then you MIGHT deduce something from this data...but NOT about Assyrians...who married anyone...but about CHRISTIAN sects who will think their children worse than dead if they dont marry close to home...and another CHRISTIAN...who, if they DID marry someone else..were chased OUT of those little villages from where this turkey got his TEST population...it had been cleansed of anyone who stood a chance of proving him WRONG. ***See link provided for figure of populations*** For most of that period Assyrians existed as a Christian minority in non-Christian majority populations, and adherence to their religion, abundantly documented in the historical record, would have provided a "genetic barrier" to gene flow from external groups. ..as Christians...yes..although to test only a small population, confined to villages in one part of a country...cleansed of any renegades who dares marry outside...huddled together for a few centuries proves nothing about any population as a WHOLE...and certainly can{t produce clear results that would be statiscally acceptable..iut turns out that this not a study of a POPULATION...but a small corner of it. ..to use his model I would set out to study all Arabian horses by testing the ten I found in a travelling circus...science my arse. In analyzing other groups in similar situations, Cavalli-Sforza et al. arrived at this opinion: "The important conclusion is that the genetic origin of groups that have been surrounded for a long time by populations of different genetic type can be recognized as different only if they have maintained a fairly rigid endogamy [ marriage within the group] for most or all the period in which they have been in contact with other groups," ..this is a study, not of populations but of GROUPS..and any thing at all discovered about that group applies only to THAT group and not another group, GENETICALLY THE SAME, which is what this fellow claims...but which for CULTURAL reasons may have decided to marry anybody...anybody at all...so much for these results. although genes contributed by external groups ("gene flow") can be tolerated for many centuries or even millennia by a population, provided they are not on a large scale. Later in this article we will see an analogous situation with Jews, where a religious difference allowed them to maintain their genetic characteristics as a minority over many centuries while living among non-Jewish majority populations. ...also not true. What he is calling Jews...are the pole of Jeish CULTURE and religion..not of Jewish BLOOD, the little Nazi...many Jews left the culture and many non ethnioc jews joined it...this is all..all of it, the white mans attempt to give spurious scientific backing..and you can see how we all jump at th e word science..to his age old and now more thretened than ever pet idea that there is SOMETHING in HIS blood and genes to explain why he is at the top of everything...that it was not anything he learned or stole but his BIOLOGICAL and even MANIFEST DESTINY to get there my murder and theft...because it was SCIENTIFICALLY ORDAINED...and DESERVED...and therefor should NOT be tampered with by us mutants. In any case, the data provide unequivocal evidence that Assyrians as a people are distinguishable from all other population groups in their genetic characteristics and are not a part of any other population. ...bullshit. It proves those VILLAGERS who refused to mix with ANYONE...never mixed with ANYONE...that{s all...and they didn{t not mix because of their Assyrian GENES..but because of their CHRISTIAN religion. The second important contribution that emerges from the book is seen when genetic relationships are made between the 18 populations of Western Asia for which enough data were available to allow meaningful interpretation. The results are summarized in the "tree" shown in the figure. The horizontal scale at the bottom quantitates the genetic distance between groups. The individual populations are listed in the general order of their relationships. The three Arab populations at the lowest part of the "tree" (Saudi, Yemeni, Bedouin) are close to each other genetically but are so far separated from the others as to constitute what the authors call a separate "minor cluster." The remaining 15 groups constitute the "major cluster." ..this is window dressing...the rapid talk a carny barker engages in...also a sop thrown to us dummies for who would admit that he or she doesnt understand a word of it.... Our primary purpose here is to define the relationships of Assyrians to their closest neighbors in the Middle East, ..and we think he means our geographical neighbors...which he really does...but assume he means to mean our closet biological neighbors...but he knows what hes doing alright...we are going to think that we are biologically diferent from our KURDISH and ARAB and TURKISH neighbors whom we hate and insist usurped our villages etc. so we will focus on seven groups that appear at the top of the "tree." Of these, Iranian and Iraqi are defined by the country of origin, after exclusion of Kurds. Jordanian, Lebanese and Turkish also mean the country of origin. Assyrians and Kurds refer to specific groups of people. All those studied were indigenous people of the area whose roots in their geographic locations go back to at least 1500 A.D. ..there{s that same mistake..for while the rest of them admitted all along as can be shown in the historical recoird that theyw ere those people all along...we lost track of everything but Chroistianity and our ARAMAIC language and culture...only being told about it four hundred years ago...till then we had no idea whatsoever that we were Assyrians, nevcer called ourselves anything but Syrians... Relationship pairings are shown: Turkish and Iranian, and Assyrian and Jordanian are "loose" pairings; Druse and Lebanese form a closer pair; and Iraqi and Kurdish people form an extremely close pairing. The closest genetic relationships of the Assyrians are with the native populations of Jordan and Iraq. In point of fact, however, all of the seven populations of interest are quite close to each other. There are no wide separations between any of them. This despite the fact that they contain members of three major language families: Indo-European (Iranian, Kurdish), Turkic (Turkish) and Semitic (Iraqi, Jordanian, Lebanese - Arabic; Assyrian - Aramaic). As the authors state, "In spite of the complex history of the Middle East and the great number of internal group migrations revealed by history, as well as the mosaic of cultures and languages, the region is relatively homogeneous" [genetically]. The least heterogeneous zone of Asia "is observed in the Near East, where the highest population densities have existed the longest, especially in the central part (Mesopotamia). Ten thousand years of agriculture, ancient urban developments, and internal migrations are probably responsible for this homogeneity." Thus, in that part of the world with the most ancient civilizations, an underlying genetic homogeneity has been "masked" by great cultural, religious and linguistic heterogeneity. The latter point is also made in studies of Jews. Based on earlier studies using classical genetic methods7 , Cavalli-Sforza et al. came to the conclusion "that Jews have maintained considerable genetic similarity among themselves and with people from the Middle East, with whom they have common origins." Evidence for the latter concept was very convincingly made and extended by an international team of scientists in a very recent research article8 ,widely reported in the press, in which the genetics of different Middle Eastern populations were studied using a completely different method than the classical methods that form the great majority of papers in the Cavalli-Sforza et al book. The research involved direct DNA analysis of the Y chromosome, which is found only in males and is passed down from father to son. Seven different Jewish groups from communities in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East were compared to various non-Jewish populations from those areas. The results showed, first of all, that "Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level." Furthermore, the genetic characteristics of Jews were shown to be distinctly different from (non-Jewish) Europeans, suggesting that very little admixture occurred between Jews and Europeans, even after about 80 generations of Jews in Europe. There was a similar distinct difference between Jews and North Africans. In striking contrast, there was an "extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations [Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, Druze, Saudi Arabians] observed here ...[that] supports the hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin" of these populations dating back about 4,000 years. The differences between the populations were not statistically significant, demonstrating once again the close genetic relationship of Middle Eastern populations to each other. In fact, the Palestinians and Syrians were so close to the Jews in genetic characteristics that they "mapped within the central cluster of Jewish populations." As one of the Israeli scientists on the team said, "Eventually people will realize that they are not that different." Peace through Genetics? Let us examine the situation in two areas of the Middle East where a radical change in the population and language occurred rapidly without being accompanied by a significant genetic change, and try to explain it. The land that now forms the nation of Turkey (Anatolia) was once a part of Byzantium. Greek (Christian) was the major influence there. The Turkic-speaking people arrived there from Central Asia in the 11th century A.D., spread successfully throughout the land and Turkish eventually became the dominant language as a Turkish nation was established. Turks are, as the authors state, "the only major group in the region that speak a language originated at a great geographic distance (probably in the Altaic region)." The pre-existing people in Anatolia, however, did not physically disappear. The genetic studies show that the majority became part of the new Turkish population. The genetic constitution of the Turks today is much closer to their nearest geographic neighbors, although none is a Turkic-language population, than to the Turkic-speaking populations of Central Asia. The authors interpret this to mean that "the Turkish language was imposed on a predominantly Indo-European-speaking population (Greek being the official language of the Byzantine empire), and genetically there is very little difference between Turkey and the neighboring countries. The number of Turkish invaders was probably rather small and was genetically diluted by the large number of aborigines." And [ in Turkey] "language replacement has occurred essentially without, or with very little, gene replacement." In view of the authors' theory explaining the genetic characteristics of the population in Turkey, it seems reasonable to consider the possibility that a similar type of event may have occurred in the Arab world of Mesopotamia and its adjacent regions - Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon (and presumably also Syria and Palestine) - to explain the genetic characteristics of those populations. In the 7th century A.D., after the conversion to Islam, the Arabs of the Arabian peninsula conquered large areas, including Mesopotamia and adjacent regions. Arabic became the major language of the region and an Arab nation was established there under Islam. But again, the pre-existing indigenous population, mainly Christian (including Assyrians), did not physically disappear, and the majority must have become part of the Arab population. Looking at the figure, one sees a very large genetic separation between the Arabs of the South - Saudis, Yemenites - and those in the region of Mesopotamia - Jordanian, Iraqi. The latter two groups are much closer genetically to the four non-Arab people of the region that we are interested in (Turk, Iranian, Kurd, Assyrian) than to the Arabs of the Arabian peninsula. As in the case of the Turks in Anatolia, these findings provide a clue that a relatively small number of Arabs from the Arabian peninsula may have carried out the conquest of a region with a much larger population, which included a number of cities, and that although the dominant language, religion and culture changed, the genes of the previous population may not have been significantly diluted and were transmitted to the present population of that region. Finally, as seen in the figure, the two Indo-European language populations, the Iranians and the Kurds, are genetically closer to the Turks and the Semitic language group of Iraqi, Jordanian, Lebanese, Assyrian, than they are to their nearest Indo-European language speaking neighbors - Armenian, Pathan, Hazara Tajiki. In fact, the figure shows that the latter are part of a separate subcluster from the one in which the Iranians and Kurds are located. The results of these scientific studies lead to the startling realization that Turks, Iranians, Kurds, Iraqis, Jordanians, Lebanese are more closely related genetically to Assyrians than they are to other members of their own respective language families in Asia. These seven groups (and Jews) are genetically close. The great language, cultural and religious differences are not reflected in the most fundamental aspect of their biology - their genes, which are the most accurate indicators of their shared origins and ancestry. If this were widely known, would the Assyrians seem so "different" to the others? Would changes in attitude begin to take place, especially among the intellectual and academic communities and the younger generations? We stand with hope at the dawn of a new millennium. For mankind in general, the future holds exciting scientific prospects for understanding our past and present genetic nature. The tiniest amounts of DNA recovered from people who died thousands of years ago can now be exactly reproduced billions of times, providing abundant material for analyzing the genetic nature of ancient ancestors ("genetic archeology"). The "whisperings of our ancestors" can now be heard by us with our DNA amplifiers. Molecular genetics is poised to take understanding of the human race to heights undreamed of just a few years ago. Within the year there will occur one of the most momentous events in human history - the complete definition of the entire human genetic code (genome) of about 100,000 genes ("human genome project"). We will be able to see the complete DNA blueprint for creating a human being, God's handwritten letter to us9. Future research will show how little difference there is between us in our DNA, giving us an unparalleled opportunity to understand how much of our humanity we hold in common. Also standing at the dawn of the new millennium are the Assyrians - on the brink of extinction. For over 1900 years since they accepted Christianity and established the Church of the East, the Assyrians in the Middle East have survived for the most part as a religious, ethnic, and language minority. While this preserved their identity and kept them from disappearing, it came at a terrible price. The history of the Assyrians reads like one long unbroken story of massacre, persecution and indescribable horror, culminating in the 20th century with genocide and diaspora, followed by even more persecution and massacre. Was it just a coincidence that the first fratricide occurred in the Middle East, when Cain murdered his brother Abel? Will we ever be free of the curse of Cain? Will the younger generations of the Middle East release their souls from the dark forces of the past? Will the knowledge that Assyrians are their "blood relatives" begin to change the perception of Middle Eastern people about Assyrians? Will it be too late for the Assyrians? References and Footnotes ...thank you for this..for it has provided a sort of scientific evidence of its own to back Dr Joseph{s claims..the authors and researchers took off and went running after a mirage in the distance they assumed was anything lineally descended or even close, to the ancient Assyrians..had the authors stuck to our own name for our religion, Nestorian...and our own name for ourselves, Syrians...they would have been a little closer...but still off in the conclusions they draw on ANY ethnic group based on a village that for cultural and not biological reasons, has kept itself pure...so to speak. 1. Cavalli-Sforza, L.L., Menozzi, P. and Piazza, A. The History and Geography of Human Genes. 1994. Princeton University Press. Unabridged Edition. 2. As above, Abridged Paperback Edition. 1996. Contains the text of the Unabridged Edition, but not the hundreds of pages of genetic maps; has an index, and references to literature that were cited in the text. Only the unabridged version has the references for research articles that were used to arrive at each population group's genetic analysis, listed by name for each population; also, the tables of gene frequencies. 2a. Cavalli-Sforza, L.L. Genes, Peoples, and Languages. 2000. North Point Press (division of Farrar, Straus and Giroux), New York. The book is a summation of the author's work written for the general reader. 3. Akbari, M.T. et al. Genetic Differentiation among Iranian Christian Communities. Am. J. Hum. Genetics, 38: 84-98. 1986. [Armenians and Assyrians]. 4. Papiha, S.S. et al. Isoelectric focusing of vitamin D binding protein (Gc): Genetic diversity in the population of Iran. Jpn. J. Hum. Genet., 30: 69-73. 1985. 5. Amin-Zaki, L. et al. Glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency among ethnic groups in Iraq. Bull. WHO, 47:1-5. 1972. (References 3,4 and 5 were used to establish the Assyrian genetics in the Cavalli-Sforza et al. book). 6. Ikin, E.W. et al. The blood groups and haemoglobins of the Assyrians of Iraq. Man, 65:110-111. 1965. 7. Carmelli, D. and Cavalli-Sforza, L.L. The genetic origin of the Jews: A multi-variate approach. Hum. Biol., 51:41-61. 1979. 8. Hammer, M.F. et al. [12 authors]. Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes. Proceedings National Academy Sciences USA. The article appeared online on the website of the journal (www.pnas.org) on May 9, 2000, in advance of print publication. At the next issue of the journal, May 23, the article was still only online. Presumably, it will be in print in the following issue - June 6. The entire DNA code is written in an "alphabet" of four "letters," A, T, G, C, which stand for the four bases found in DNA - adenine, thymine, guanine, cytosine. The bases are lined up in a precise sequence to create a specific gene, say one that has 1,000 bases. Alteration of even one of the bases is a mutation. </td></tr> <tr class=WHITE><td><br> <div align=center><http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/10/11/279383/Pics%20For%20Slideshow/Gooshma%20Ashuraya-Assyrian%20Genetics.bmp width=640 height=480 alt="[ 640 x 480 - 7.77 ko ]"></div> Now that you are all looking at this image, let us begin taking it apart. Okay: Farid stated that he believes that ALL of the people of Iraq are descended from the ancient Assyrians – not just the Assyrian Christians. This is a point I agree 100% on and whoever says otherwise is clearly ignorant for all the reasons we have been stating for years. However, if he is agreeing with Dr. Joseph then we run into some conflicts when looking at this figure. ...I see I was mistaken in this..we are descended, most directly from the Arameans...because we adopted their language and ind oing that lost whatever Akkadian Assyrian cultur we had, with the mother tongue we gave up...refer to what we ourseves claim will happen if we ever forget OUR language now. 1) Farid can say: “Yea but the Assyrians tested in this DNA test are all Assyrians originally from Urmia, or at least their parents from there and really they are Iranians, or Persians.” Okay, if that is the case, then the whole point is voided when we look at this graph and see that the Iranian blood is similar to that of the Assyrians (and not even that far from those groups from further out west like the Lebanese). ...I dont buy he similar blood at all...not at all. 2) Farid HAS said: “The modern-day Assyrians are Nestorians, which is a sect of Christianity, which is a heretical sect of Judaism, and therefore, all modern-day “Assyrians” are Jews. ..I did not mean Jews biologically...I meant in RELIGION and CULTURE...and indeed many Jews did convert to Nestorianism. ALSO becomes voided b/c when we look on this graph we see that two completely removed and isolated groups who for years – maybe even NEVER – had no contact with each other (The Assyrians, in this case Urmishnaya Assyrians and the Jordanians). Furthermore, if the Assyrian Christians are Jews, then so are all the other groups in that close cluster. If we are to argue that they [the Assyrian Christians] are Jews only in the cultural/religious sense, then that is also a frail argument b/c the Jews copied their religion from ours and added their different twists (and lies) to it (e.g. their falsified history of how Sankheriw died). Not to mention that they admit to having been originally from Mesopotamia. ...they core of Christianity is not the Flood, or love or anything else shared with anybody else...it is simply the belief in a JEWISH Messiah...which was NEVER a part of anything Assyrian. 3) Dr. Joseph is correct in saying that thanks to the Ancient Assyrian empire, we set those monkey-ass “Aramaeans” straight by assimilating them into us. ..he does not say that at all...he says that is what WE maintain...what happened, after we conquered them..as had happened so many times before...is that our monkey asses were assimilated to them...because we gave up our mother tongue...and with it our Assyrian culture...as we claim happens when you turn your moneky ass over to Islam... As a result, we began to incorporate their language more, etc. This is correct but partially off. First of all, I have always stated that the Aramaeans were a tribe of Assyrians. ...go ahead...assert anything you want...but Dr Joseph does more than assert This graph does not prove it, but provides some strength to the argument. If we look at it logically, it makes a bit of sense. “Aram” means the high places (e.g. ramma). Modern-day Syria is located 2000 feet above sea level, which is very high. Furthermore, the so-called Aramaic is not too much different from Akkadian, that’s why the incorporation was not so difficult. The only thing that required switching was the dozens (around 100) characters/letters of the cuneiform alphabet to the modern, 22-letter alphabet. The language stayed relatively the same. And even if we were to say that the “Nestorians” speak “Nestorian Aramaic” and not Akkadian, the Urmishnaya Assyrians do not speak that dialect [“Nestorian Aramaic”] but rather speak a form of Assyrian that is very, very close to Akkadian. ..these are all dialects of Aramaic...which for all your dancing around is not the same language...French, German and Spanish come from Latin...they are derived from Latin and so you recognize similar or borrowed words...but the people are not the same. Why do you people think it is so difficult for a “chaldean” sect member (those Assyrians of Alqosh, Tel Keph, etc.) or “jacobite” sect member to understand an Urmishnaya. In fact, the only reason bne-Iran Assyrians and bne-Iraq Assyrians understand each other today is two-fold: 1) The Church dialect which all had to learn at least a little but which the Urmishnaya Assyrians did not use in speech and 2) The missionaries of the west who came to Urmia found that the Assyrians used one dialect for speech and one for church liturgy, which pissed them off because it made their missionary efforts all the more difficult. They urged the Urmishnaya Assyrians (and remember at this time the brain power of the Assyrians was in Urmia, especially Sporghan/Mar Gewargis) to translate all their works from “Nestorian Aramaic” to their spoken language. This is why we have so many works today written in the “Swadaya” dialect – that is, the Urmishnaya dialect. Then the missionaries, with the aid of some foolish Assyrians who helped them, went and spread this to the people of the mountains in the Hakkari region. This caused the tribes of the Hakkari region to have some Urmishnaya/Swadaya influence and is the only reason an Urmishnaya and Tiaraya or Urmishnaya and Jilwaya can understand each other today. Actually, some of us still don’t understand each other. But Urmishnaye understand each other’s various village dialects and in the Hakkari, the asheerate can understand each other pretty well. However, when it comes to the two understanding each other, it does not happen. Even in today’s information age we cannot get it to happen. That is because no bne-Iran Assyrian will pick up a heavy dialect like that of the Tiaraya, not unless he is heavily sedated. ...all inteersting but has nothing to do that i can see with Dr Joseph{s main points. 4) We were fooled to believe that the Arab Conquest wiped out all Assyrians and oppressed us severely, etc. ...therew ere no Assyrians left by then...not in any way you are thinking of them..they had merged into the Aramaic language and then culture group as you never tire telling us happened when Islam came and made ARABS of us all. No. There is no way that an army of 10,000 (by most early Islamic sources) Arabs from Arabia destroyed an entire Assyria. ...there was no Assyria by then...there were Nestorian sectsand jacobits, rulked by others...fighting among each other...there was no MIGHT...there was only some culture...but it was not Assyrian, they way you think. NO WAY. What simply happened here was that the Assyrians saw an opportunity coming and quite a bit willingly converted. Working together with their brother Christians, they built a beautiful civilization expanding on ancient Assyrian architecture and making us proud, AGAIN – not to mention saving us from the damn western Christians as well. The fact that Iraq is not ethnically “Arab” is evident in this graph. The Arabs of the Conquest were from Arabia and therefore would have fallen under one of the three lines at the bottom (Bedouin, Saudi, or Yemenite). The fact that the amount of Arabs that entered and stayed (and stayed PURE) was relatively small is evident in this graph and when logically thinking about it. Iraq was and IS Assyrians – Assyrians that converted to Islam, and some that stayed Christian or even Zardoshti or Mandean, etc. We need to accept this fact. Furthermore, if we were to believe in the idea of “encroachment,” we would not see Kuwait listed at the group in the top (closer to modern-day Assyrian) – it would have been listed closer to the bottom groups (that of the Saudis). This further proves that Assyria, though it did have groups coming in from here and there, stayed relatively “pure.” ...that happened...but it was Aramaic Christians who joined up...not Assyrians. There is a lot more we can deduce or speculate on from this graph. I will get to it later. I am not saying I pierced a hole in Farid’s balloon. No, I know – and fully expect – that he will ready a critique or opinion on this matter, especially since he started it. What I am saying is this. I fully believe that the modern-Assyrians are descendents of the ancient Assyrians. ..and that is all it is..a belief...like bieliving in eternity, the bible, or the tooth fairy...once again Dr Jospeh did not write and the university would not have accepted as scholalry nor the publsihers printed as valid his BELIEFS...as none of us with these beliefs has been able to find anyoner anywhere to take it seriously enough to risk publication and hence our writers must print themselves up. However, the Assyrian Christians should not claim that they are the only descendents of the ancients. That would be a reckless statement and rather silly at that. The fact of the matter is that the entire Assyria was not sacked. Yea people moved around a little bit and new ideas came through or ideas were reinvigorated but the fact remains that we are one people. Now, I actually like the idea of the reinvigoration. And to say that a group from modern-day Syria (at that time, the geographical area called Aram) had influence on the rest of us around 700 B.C. does not phase me. Why? Because they, too, are Assyrians. ..that was easy. It is true that we can say that Iraq has had groups come in it which did not previously live there and then brought their ideas, etc. to the land but those peoples were not “foreigners” to begin with. ..the Arameans did NOT live in Iraq...they at war with the Assyrians for a few hundreds and were only conquered 110 years before the Fall...their influence, however became very powerful so that the declining Assyrian empire..sonn to be overrun by so many energetic forces and cultures, could not resist...and having changed labguages...lost it all. Yea they lived slightly outside of the core of the land of the rivers, but that did not make them non-Assyrian. They were not foreigners, not at least in the way we say the white people mixed with each other or the way America was formed. Bet Nahrain was full of OUR people with different ideas. America is different in that it is full of DIFFERENT people with different ideas. ...very speculative...which is not the way Dr Joseph approached nor delt with the topic. Now, if only we people of the Middle East (specifically those that live on the lands of what was once the Assyrian empire) can exchange these ideas today without killing each other. What an idea that is, huh? The only way we can even begin to work toward that is if the white man stops meddling in our business. ...there is a much better way...accept that all the people are the people of the countries they live in, get over ourselves, each and every one...accept as ours every culture there...and strive to take this mdoern hisoty of everyones forward..and not back to millets or Assyria... 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