The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Response to Mr. R. Suave

Response to Mr. R. Suave
Posted by assyrian atheist (Guest) - Saturday, September 19 2009, 20:21:19 (CEST)
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WHo is defending the crimes of the West against Iraq?

..if you neglect to blame the West for destroying Iraqi culture and law and order, but only blame Iraqis for doing their best under what they have suffered...as if these were normal times, then you are blaming Iraqis for a situation that was not of their own choosing and from which they have suffered more than anyone. If you find Iraqis today behaving in ways you don't approve of, you have to ask if this was the way they ALWAYS behaved or something new and brought on by the war brought by the West. Otherwise you ARE blaming Iraqis and only Iraqis.


Your citation of prominent Christian Iraqi figures in the secular regime of Saddam Hussein betrays the assertion that you and your ideological brethren make that Christians acted as a traitorous fifth column in Iraq. So which is it? Are Christians loyal Iraqis or traitors?


...they are both, like everywhere else at times. But traitors always make the greatest impact during times of war. Before this latest war there were many Christians who worked and thrived in Iraq...naturally the position of all Christians is threatened now by this Christian-led jihad against Iraq...why does that surprise you?


But let's look at the situation now: Is there any chance in hell that a Christian would rise to deputy Prime Minister under these Islamist buffoons who are ruining Iraq today? Of course not.

...you said yourself, they are "buffoons". They are also America's puppets. Nothing meaningful can be expected of any of them...but seeing how Iraqis eventually forgive, if they don;t forget...like the other betrayals by their own Christians back during the 1920s and especially the Levies...Christians will once again resume normal lives one day when this is all past us...but to expect it now is unrealistic....Iraqis have every reason to be pissed at ANY Christians anywhere.


Why? It's unacceptable to Muslims to have a Christian reach such positions of power.

...not at all....they have before and they will again, but not now and not for the near future...the Iraqi people have to heal first...they have to get over the fact that Christian nations declared a war against them based on lies and that often enough their own Christians, both at home and around the world, made no secret of their glee at this prospect...although I think Iraqi Christians were much less "hopeful" that anything good would come of this for them...but ex-pat Christians yelled loud and often that they would go back and fight against Iraq, many joined the invading armies and others collaborated with the occupiers...these kinds of things naturally increased hostilities between Muslims and Christians.


As well, it is ethically suspect, when confronted with accusations of human rights violations of one group against another to say that other people do more of it. Where did you learn to debate? The school of deflection and distraction?

..if you pointed out violations by BOTH sides, then I wouldn't have to remind you that Christians have been far more violent than have Muslims....I'm not justifying anyone's crimes, I'm merely pointing out that the initial crime, in this war, was committed by Christians and to blame Muslims for being "violent" because they fight back is dishonest. I'm not trying to deflect anything....it seems to me you are.

...When you say, "they are all guilty", it's as if you don't recognize that the United States and other Christian nations began this war....what did you expect the Muslim world to do....sit back and take it?


"the bombing of their churches,"

...how many mosques and hospitals and schools have been bombed? If the United States feels justified in attacking Iraq, a country from which not ONE person participated in the events of 9/11, but nevertheless has waged a war of retaliation based on lies...do you think it's wrong for Muslims to be pissed at such Christian nations? Why do you never look to the enormous crimes Christianity has visited on people but only fault them for daring to strike back, or defend themselves?"

You cannot equate the bombing of mosques and churches by a foreign army with the attacks against Iraqi citizens by other Iraqi citizen


...why? Have you never heard of a civil war? During the American Civil War American Christians of the South attacked, burned and raped American Christians of the North and churches were bombed..and all of them were citizens of the same country AND of the same religion...besides there's no proof that these bombings were carried out by Muslims...as we see now when Blackwater is being exposed for the murderous thugs they employ...it's highly likely that these bombings were carried out by non-Iraqis...you remember divide and rule?


Iraqi Christians are IRAQIS. They had no relationship with the US waging war,

...many of them have gone to work for the occupying forces as interpreters...if Germany occupied America and found German-Americans to work for them, they would be seen as traitors to America by the people and we all know what fate awaits traitors and collaborators....

...During the Second World War Americans of Japanese ancestry also did nothing to America to show any disloyalty or desire for Japan to win the war...and yet their property was seized, or sold off at fire-sale prices...they lost everything and were herded together in concentration camps for years...what had they done to America? Obviously when a country faces attack or feels itself threatened it does things such as this; it turns on its own citizens merely on the suspicion that they may prove disloyal...and, something no Japanese-American ever did, our Christians had gone to work for the occupying British as Levies during the 20s...they took money from a foreign, Christian, occupying force, to fight against the very people who had opened their arms and border to allow them to escape Iran. How was Iraq to know that their own Christians would not do the same again?


and to link them to the US simply because they share the same religion as the majority of Americans is about as illogical and remedial an argument as one can make.

...I'm not justifying any of this...I'm merely saying that to expect the Iraqis to behave better than you expect the Americans to behave isn't fair...if America could lock up its Japanese, German and Italian-American citizens merely on the chance that they might be less than loyal...why is it so odd to you that Iraq, facing a war waged by the most advanced nations on earth, against their civilian population, and based solely on lies, wouldn't react with fear and suspicion of its own citizens who shared the religion of their enemies? Especially when in the past our people had shown themselves ever willing to take the side of their own co-religionists against their own neighbors?


It also once again demonstrates that you have no argument, so you must resort to deflections. Well, THEY bombed mosques, therefore it's justified when Muslims bomb churches?

..of course it isn't justified...I never said it was. I said to ONLY blame Muslims, if indeed they are responsible, for bombing churches, while saying nothing of the many mosques bombed seems one-sided....if one is wrong, so is the other...however, and this is where your argument is weak, you claim that both sides are EQUALLY at fault...that's where I disagree....a woman being raped, who blinds her attacker in an effort to defend herself, or her children, is not "equally" at fault as her attacker...yes, she has "done violence"...but for goodness sake, take into account the circumstances.

..the United States felt perfectly justified in attacking Iraq, even though there wasn't a single Iraqi among the 19 who attacked on 9/11...but they did it anyway...said they were going to get justice through retribution...if the Christian United States can do such things, because they want to punish somebody, anybody...why can't the Iraqis also lash out and punish those whom they KNOW are attacking them....when the United States KNEW not a single Iraqi attacked it?


What kind of bullshit argument is that?

..it is your argument, ask yourself...I never said such a thing.


The fact remains that Iraqis of the Christian faith have been targeted precisely because they are Christian. That is not the mark of tolerance, no matter how much you try to spin it.

...that is what I asked you to prove..it is not a "fact" simply because you say it is..and all you've done is repeat it...that is not evidence. You are welcome to think anything you like...but it's good to have facts too. I still say Christians have NEVER been attacked for their beliefs, not by Muslims anyway (though Christians have often attacked Christians for theirs)...Christians are attacked for what they've DONE. If you claim that in this instance Iraqi Christians have done nothing...then I point out that Japanese-Americans also had done nothing, yet they were jailed and robbed, legally too. It would seem then that people will attack those who seem perfectly innocent and often times are...but with Christian nations attacking Iraq, and the memory of the Levies plus the intrusion of foreign missionaries and the welcome they received from our people and the damage they did..plus the numbers of our Christians who said they would go to Iraq to fight, I can see that Iraqi Muslims had far more justification for resenting their own Christians than did Americans for jailing Japanese-Americans..of course it is WRONG..but it seems to be human...and I'm pointing out BOTH while you are stressing only one.



How ignorant you are. You're telling me you haven't read about the forced ethnic cleansing of Christians from Dora?

...once again, I need proof. I don't believe anything I read from aina...or any of our own magazines because they lie often enough, though they think it is a "national duty". A lot of things are claimed by our churches and nationalists in an effort to whip up support and pity and alarm....but I can understand why Muslims would want to get rid of their neighboring Christians..I UNDERSTAND it, I don't approve of it. But consider the 700,000 Iraqi children UNDER the age of five, who've been effectively "cleansed" from the earth and now occupy graves...why were they killed? Don't you think their parents, all million four hundred thousand of them would be glad to have them back even if they had to move?


I'm not talking about jizya from centuries ago. I'm talking about your Muslim brothers who are posting jizya notices on the doors of Christian homes in Dora TODAY and forcing them to leave their houses. Is this what you are defending? How sad you support such barbarism and inhumanity.


..I'm defending nothing but fairness, justice and truth. If you want these things to stop in Iraq then you have to complain to those who've brought death and destruction to the country...which has hurt EVERYONE...but as Iraqis look around them to see who is to blame, they see the Christian religion and a president who let slip the word "Crusade", before taking it back. The Japanese-Americans lost all their possessions, businesses, farms,jewelry and property as well as their rights and liberty...was this not a "tax"...a total one at that?

..let's hold all sides to the same standards and not just blame the victims...those who suffer the most, and ask THEM to behave in ways we ask of no one else. America confiscated over 20 billion in Iraqi reserves at the start of the war..is this not a jizya tax? How much more have Iraqis, all Iraqis, paid or lost as a result of this war, brought by Christian nations? Iraqis know that Christians brought this war, that Christians ruined their land and confiscated their wealth and murdered their children and raped their young men and women..this is the real crime, the "first-crime"...after what Iraqi society has suffered, the brutality with which the people have been treated, it's hardly fair to come back at them and attack them some more, for not behaving in ways you would approve of...in not being "nice" and fair and discriminating between those who actually hurt them and merely those who share the same religion with their attackers...remember; America had not a single pretext to attack Iraq...not one, but they did it anyway.

.,,Plus which Americans disbanded all police and army personnel and opened all prisons on entering the country..there has been no law and order but only brute force....if all criminals in New York were set free and all police disbanded, don;t you think there would be an upsurge of crime in New York? Iraq has become a lawless place where guns rule, where there are no jobs and so kidnapping for profit has become a business...and this was brought to the country by Christians, not Muslims....the acts you decry are most likely committed by criminals using religion as a pretext, as with the Americans.

...The question should be, "before this war, were these kinds of things being done to the Iraqi Christians"? If your answer is "yes", then I ask you, again, to bring us proof that Muslims persecuted Christians just because of their religion, and not what they did, or were thought liable to do again.....this is where the discussion started, because you people say that Islam tortured and persecuted Christians since the Arabs first came...this is what we ask proof for, not your word or feelings, but actual historical evidence....because I believe there isn't any and more than that, the actual historical record, and not the hysterical one, shows the opposite: that Islam SAVED our Christian sects, who were regarded as heretical by the Romans and would have been wiped out had the Arabs not defeated them...and protected us.

..I don;t question that your family suffered, mine has as well....but they suffered as a direct result of the breakdown of all restraint and law and order and in the horror and injustice of war...a war brought to Iraq by Christian nations based on lies and deceit. Under these circumstances, if you're looking for the real culprit, look no further than Christian nations who would wage a war against an innocent civilian population; its children first of all, after the nation's armed forced were defeated in four hours, for six years now...not even the Nazis waged war against civilians, or anyone, for this long.



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