The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> The Volcano Fumes at Dr Joseph

Posted by pancho (Guest) - Wednesday, October 3 2007, 18:46:03 (CEST)
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Dr.John Joseph's BLUNDER

Posted By: Ashur Beth-Shlimon
Date: Tuesday, 2 October 2007, at 10:45 p.m.

Dr. Joseph said:

" The geographical area wherein these events took place roughly corresponds to where the countries of Persia, Turkey and Iraq meet…in the wild hills and mountains of the borders of the Ottoman empire with Persia. To find a historian to match knowledge and interests with Dr Joseph one would have to find one whose field of expertise and area of research matched those of Dr Joseph. To put before him a historian of ancient Assyrian history has no meaning…for they are experts in two very different fields. Dr Joseph has never claimed there were no Assyrians in ancient history…he merely writes that there is evidence that a. prior to the 17th century A.D. no one in Mesopotamia claimed to be a Chaldean…and b. prior to the 19th century A.D. no one there claimed to be an Assyrian. And that these ideas were introduced by Europeans: in the case of modern Chaldeans by the pope and with the modern Assyrians by British archaeologists. "

REPLY >>>

I did give for such ignorant explanation many times, but I will repeat it again for those who never remember or never read.

...First of all, those are not Dr Joseph's words but mine.

To give an explanation in a very concise way I will say the following:

> The NATIONAL meaning of a people was lost in the last 2000 years or so, where it was replaced by RELIGION, in many instances the religion was that strong to a point that nationalism was almost dead.

...you are not a scholar, an academician, a professor, a historian anywhere and have never been. I distinctly said that you people fail to bring even one historian who is versed in THIS topic...that is; the modern Assyrians. You keep citing experts of ancient Assyrian history...and to make up for this, present yourselves as "experts"...when your only basis for any of this pop-history is what your grandmother told you.

...there was no "nationalism", the way we use the phrase since the rise of nations, in that region, with the dissolution of the Ottoman EMPIRE...an empire is not a nation...it is usually made of the lands of conquered people who belong to an empire...not a nation.

...as far as ignorance goes..one who feels disdain for the correct usage and meaning of words in a language so clearly not his own and on which he craps with every other word...well.

> Two historical events were behind the NATIONALISM awareness and that were ,the French Revolution and the American Revolution.

...those were nations...Iraq was not, not under the Ottomans. You are not a historian...I presented one...a well-known and respected one. I too can rattle off my own ideas and theories, and have done so and still do often enough. But, if you're going to challenge Dr Joseph, it would be helpful to your own cause if you could present direct sources besides your granbdmother or what the priest told you...we are not dealing, and neither is Dr Joseph, his collegues and schools, in personal idiosyncrasies...we are dealing with actual historical record as preserved and accumulated by historians, not priests. The writings of the missionaries also don't concern us where they discuss Christian dogma..but their interaction with the Nestorians sheds light on the conditions there. Bring us modern, relevant, historians who are experts in THIS field...in modern Assyriana nd Chaldean identities...and you'll at least have something to fall back on, instead of your backsides.

> The NATIONALISM fever spread all over the world since these two great revolutions emerged where they brought a new meaning for people that were not acquainted with before.

...that is true. But this still doesn't address the definition of "nation" in use today. Something you consistently fail to grasp. The Christians of the Middle East HAVE nations...they are the nations where they were born, or now reside, including nations in the West...and for which they can show OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS...they are not and never have been "nationals" of an Assyria.

A case in point , when the Turkish leader Atatürk/ Mustache Kemal was fighting the Italians, one Egyptian poet by name ' Ahmad SHOWQI' said :

O' khlaed* of the TURKS , revive the Khaled of the Arabs !

You see that he is looking to MUSTAPHA KAMAL as a MUSLIM leader than a TURKISH!

..the way you people use "Arab" is also not a national designation...only the people of Saudi Arabia belong to an Arab nation...Egyptians belong to the nation of Egypt etc.
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* Khaled: Is the Arab Islamic leader who conquered Iraq and Syria in the middle of the seventh century A.D.

In any event , if Dr. Joseph can't ignore the ancient Assyrians , then the question to be asked is he should explain then what happened to such ASSYRIANS ?

...He doesn't ignore them...he is very knowledgeable on the subject but it is NOT his area of perofessional or academic expertise. He is presenting documents and papers and sources which show how the pope invented modern Chaldeans in the 17th century..something ALL you modern Assyrians admit, with great joy too. You're just shocked and pissed when the same evidence can be presented to show that modern Assyrians were also invented, though later and by different Europeans.

...what "happened" to the ancient Assyrians is the same thing that happened to the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians and Celts and people of Gual and Albion. When you people laugh at the ridiculous notion that the Assyrians were "all wiped out"...you should ask yourselves why then you believe att the Sumerians, or Kassites, or Amorites were wiped out? Else, where are they today. Dr Joseph and others have clearly shown in what sense the ancients "disappeared" and that is because they forgot their native language and with it their history and sense of identity..as you ALL warn your children NOT to do by forgetting Aramaic..which isn't even ASSYRIAN. But the point is well made that you, yourselves, consider a person as "lost" to his roots if he forgets his LANGUAGE. Why do you all say this? It must be because you consider language the key to your "ethnic" identity...why then can you not see that when the Assyrians gave up on their native Akkadian language, the same thing happened to them that you warn your children will happen to them if THEY forget their language? Only in thats ense did the Assyrians 'disappear"..the PEOPLE remained, of course..but the conscious IDENTITY was lost.

..You have ALL said, over and over, that modern Chaldeans are a fraud...you have said they have no "nation" AND...never did! YOU deny their "nationality" as well as their legitimacy...but refuse to see the same scam was pulled on you. You point out where and when and how Europeans invented modern Chaldeans but REFUSE to admit to the tons of evidence that shows Europeans did the same with you.

...You're pissed and shocked to discover the truth of those words that he who lives in a glass Assyria shouldn't throw stones at a Chaldea made of smoke and mirrors. In all the "prooves" that you, when you were a full blown volacano and not just a blowhard, Aprim, Jassim and so many more "nationalists" gave...all the times you demended ONE document proving modern Chaldeans were for rea, all the times you pointed to the Europeans from Rome who invented modern Chaldeans, that all those times and with all that smugness you were merely showing how weak and similar was your own argument for being modern Assyrians.

...You are not an Assyrian nation because you are neither. You are Christians who already HAVE nations...except that when they are Muslim nations you refuse to show loyalty or patriotism or love of nation...things you are happy to give to the Christian nations you run to and who are the chief people in the world destroying your own "beloved" homeland.

As far as I know , he never bothered himself to do that, because he is an agent PAID to destroy and tarnish the ASSYRIAN history only, to be in forefront of those who attack the Assyrian nation TO BE USED as a reference to them !

...there is no evidence anywhere for thewse claims of your's. It's odd that a man not "ignorant" will ignore the scholarship behind Dr Joseph's book while making wild statements, as if they were facts, that Dr Joseph is paid to destroy you and your idiotic nation. Where is your scholarly, or any proof? How can you pretend to be so rigorous and concerned for facts and definitions when attacking him, while being so damn sloppy and deceitful yourself by making outrageous statements you back with nothing?

And, once again, when will any of you give a REASON why anyone should be afraid of modern Assyrians "uniting"...or fear them at ALL! I've asked you several times and not once have you given any explanation at all...you people are a danger to yourself or, more exactly, to the Christians who ever tried to live in peace in their Muslim nations. No one has to "destroy" your unity...you are all perfectly capable and committed to destroying YOURSELVES.

In any event , I will say that the ASSYRIANISM is a continuation up to this day EXCEPT in the mind of DR. JOSEPH and all those who are the enemy of the Assyrian nation!

..it is not. It exists only in your head and the heads of others like you. There is no Assyrianism whatsoever...it's just a word...a big fat hot one, like all the others you use without bothering to know what they mean.

..If you had one-tenth, even, of the academic standing that Dr Joseph has, it might not be so embarrassing to read the comments of a mouse, as he roars at the lion...but with all your verbal and metal liabilities or, perhaps because of them, to see you rage on in your ignorance, so prowd to be so ignorant, is a dismal sight...though it gladdens my heart because, as always, you make my work so much easier...so much easier.

We know that in the early century of Christianity there were people proud to be Assyrians to name TATIAN the Assyrian, even there is another who was not Christian to name Lucian of Samosata .

...they were not Assyrians, silly. They were born in the "land of the Assyrians"...those aren't Assyrian names to begin with. People knew that area as the "land of the Assyrians"...as we know today that Arizona is the land of the Navajo...that doesn't mean that if a Greek today is born in Phoenix he IS a Navajo.

We see in the fifth century Mar Narsai up to 11- 14 century in people like Malpana Gewarges Warda, Mar Mari, Mar ABDESHO of SOBA and Armenia .

...sorry. Your Mars are nowhere taken as historical sources...church people LIE for their church and invent all sorts of things...no doubt you still believe in the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, because there ia "proof" in the writings of the church..and that St John had fourteen thumbs, all from his right hand, on display today at any number of cathedrals in Europe.

..religious sources count only for religious discussions...they have no intellectual standing at all...neither does Voodooism..though they have books too.

It is essential to say that the one who revived the CHALDAEAN name were not ASSYRIANS , but the Church of ROME in order to destroy ASSYRIANISM and the Church of the East .

..the pope didn't go there to destroy anyone...he went because he was losing Catholics to the Protestant Reformation...and he wanted to bring the Nestorians and other heretical sects, back into the fold. No one refered to those people as Assyrians..they were known, by themselves as well, as Nesotorians...we have NEVER referred to ourselves as Asuhraye, but as Suraye...at least not until after the Euros came..just as the ones who returned to Catholicism had never refered to themselves as Chaldeans, till the Euros came..something you all admit to.

..likewise the Nestorians who did NOT rejoin the Catholic Church had never refered to themselves as Ashuraye but Suraye.

While if the BRITONS named the people of upper MESTOPOTAMIA or ASSYRIA to be ASSYRIANS , which is a natural thing to do in order to be introduced to the WORLD AFFAIRS as a nation , they were right to see the only name GEOGRAPHICALLY and HISTORICALLY -as we stated above - fit them is the ASSYRIAN name.

...Henry Layard and even Rassam, went on calling the Nestorians Chaldeans...not even they used this new-fangled term. What the Britons did is their business...it seems whenever you can twist something to suit your purpose, you'll gladly do so, even if it comes from the Britons whom you blame the rest of the time.

..It's very simple...at no time before the Euros came did the Nestorians refer to themselves as Chaldeans and Assyrians...there is ample evidence to back this up...but since you can't read, and can't understand what you read, when you do, and haven't bothered to read and study and THINK about what Dr Joseph has so clearly shown, but instead spend your days spinning cobwebs of fantastic and tortured "proooves" that the man is out to GET you....where's the use?

It is crystal clear that you can't name these people, ARABS, PERSIANS, TURKOMANS, Q....S and TURKISH, but they are ASSYRIANS .

...they are not. They have not a single iota of evidence that can withstand the slightest examination...why do you think these points are banned from all your forums...even Maggies, she who was going to have a free and open forum...till she got overwhelmed again. The people in question are nationals of the countries they were born in who happen to be of the Christian faith..that's all. It is you people who play fast and loose with definitions, shifting and leaping whenever one of your points is about to sink onto another one and so on.

...If you are refering to a national name, then you need DOCUMENTED evidence..if you mean you are ethnically Assyrian then you need a different sort of proof...and since you don't apeak the Assyrian but the Aramaic language and since you don't practise the Assyrian but a Jewish religion...I don't think you can make an athnic case from kebobs and yoghurt. You are Christians who don't LIKE belonging to Muslim nations. That's all.

I hope Dr. John Joseph will come to his senses as he is in the last leg of his life , either way sure will be cursed by the Assyrians and that will be a step should avoid sooner or later.

...he is loved and revered by many of us...but we would be called traitors by you and be accused of being out to "GET" you. He has spoken good sense all his professional life..and has been recognized by his students and peers as having done so. It is you people, drowning in ignorance and a demented desire to inflate your paltry egos, to blame someone else for your failures, your personal failures, which you trancfer onto a world out tog et you or college professors PAID to destroy you.

...once again, I thank you from the heart of my bottom for helping to expose and bury yourselves. I'll try to post my response to you at Maggie's, though we both know what the result will be. And next time, show a little more courage and address yourself to me directly. Surely a modern Assyrian, the grandson of Ashurbanipal no less, as you wrote in your poem, shouldn't be seen running from words and ideas.

Ashur Beth-Shlimon

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