The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> as per the Xenophon Challenge

Posted by pancho (Guest) - Saturday, February 24 2007, 1:30:13 (CET)
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…as per the Xenophon Challenge I’m only going to respond to those factual statements you make, with credible sources provided, not merely what you say and believe nor what everyone else knows. I think this is the only way we’re going to get anywhere…because the other way we’ll all be LOOLing and drooling too.

With all due respect to you, and your thoughts, but I was not thinking of you and Dr. Joseph, when I wrote this post. Look who's being emotional?

…explanation accepted.

I was referring to the Chaldo/Assyrian/Kurdish Christian context, in which our relatives in northern Iraq are put at this moment, further accentuating their departure from any national identity, the way the Kurds and the Arabs of Iraq enjoy.

…I have no idea what you mean here. You can either clarify, or let it slide…up to you.

I can see if all of Iraq was united, as Iraqis, with a legitimately elected and democratic government at the helm, and not some religious fundamentalists running the show from Baghdad on the one hand, and the Kurds trying to establish a Kurdistan on top of us by any means necessary, on the other hand, as our people narrowly try to escape the fight between the will of two different governments, both of which are Muslims, with Islamic courts. There’s no chance of their ethnic survival at this rate, much less their religious survival.

…I don’t understand the conclusion to the opening “I can see if all of Iraq was united”…there’s a long series of incomplete sentences with no conclusion as to what it is you “can see”. Other than that, I believe you’re begging the question again…Dr Joseph’s book, at least the chapter I’m referring to, says nothing about a chance to survive as an “ethnicity”. But he does say that our ethnicity is not ancient Assyrian and therefore can’t be modern Assyrian either…he doesn’t say ancient Assyrians were wrong or never existed…he says we’re wrong when we say we are their descendants…and he provides sources for those errors and builds his case on those sources. Neither he nor I dealt with Kurdistan being created now and what this means for any “ethnicity” in Iraq…he goes back much farther to question whether Nestorians, of various ethnicities, can legitimately call themselves Modern Assyrians…I didn’t want to ignore this completely, although I’m getting tired of repeating it…I may just cut and paste it next time you raise this same issue again.

No one said that the Muslims of Iraq created this situation. We all know America created both of these illegitimate governments, one in Baghdad, the other in the north. I’m just saying that it is a no win situation for our people, unless they can guarantee their own ethnic and physical survival and safety, be strong and take matters into their own hands. We all know none of our political groups will ever save them, or any of our churches, because they are too busy selling religion. Baghdad won’t help them, the way the Arabs of the Central government are obligated to put up with Kurdistan. Kurds won’t help them either, because our people are living on the very land the Kurds want, so why should they help them? The only one that can do anything to help them is THEM, and they have no friends.

…this also has nothing to do with the topic…not if you’re addressing Dr Joseph’s book and its contents and the points he makes, which is what I am concerned with. Your concerns in this post seem to be with “our people” and their troubles right now in Iraq…this is a legitimate topic but is not under discussion now…except to remind you that Dr Joseph says that we and other ethnic groups are of the Nestorian faith and not of an Assyrian “etnicity”. If you can prove, through valid sources that we are Assyrians, descended from the ancients…I am most eager to see you do so.

It isn’t the Muslim’s fault, but it isn’t the Assyrians of Iraq’s fault, either. They didn’t instigate the current sectarian fighting, and Christian bashing, we DID, here in the West, with our Western brand of Christian/Imperialism, living comfortably and in relative safety, telling the superpowers what to do with Iraq, if we couldn’t have it. Knowing all this doesn’t reverse the damage already inflicted on our people, and it certainly doesn’t prevent anything worse happening to them than what they are having to endure, right now, not knowing their ultimate political fate.

..if by “our people” you mean Iraqis of the Nestorian , Catholic, and Protestant faiths…and the damage done to all Iraqis of whatever religion…then I don’t disagree and I don’t think Dr Joseph would either…if you mean, however, that “our people” are the Modern Assyrians, then we disagree…although by whatever name the crime they are suffering from remains the same.

…Once again, Dr Joseph writes that we are in error when we say we are Assyrians…therefore if you haven’t yet established your side of the argument, that we are Assyrians, then every time you use the term Assyrian, you are not being empirical and begging the question too…we can’t discuss being Assyrian yet, not in discussions of this book because that’s exactly the point in contention.

I think about these brave people, knowing they have decimated themselves religiously, but at the same time remembering that they are the most fragile and vulnerable group in Iraq, as they try to hold on to what little they have left, socially, culturally, linguistically, religiously, and economically, which no one has the right to take away from them, unless we have learned nothing from the past, and will continue to allow these injustices to take place without saying anything. So I am saying something.

…it is commendable that you wish to stop human suffering, many do…also that you include all Iraqis, regardless of their religions, in your efforts…as I’m sure you feel for all human beans…and Dr Joseph would agree and so do I…but that is still not the issue I raised when bringing Dr Joseph’s book up for discussion.

That’s right Iraq is not the same, with everyone suffering, many lives shattered, many killed, the country raped, but my concern is that when all is done, Iraqi Arabs will still be called Arabs. The Iraqi Kurds will still be called Kurds. But the Assyrians of Iraq will be called Chaldo/Assyrians, (Catholic Assyrians) or Chaldo/Assyrian/Syrian, or Christian Kurds, and many other titles, and everything else but Assyrians, further dividing them, and decimating them, to the point where every Assyrian in the world will be dealing with a new set of problems in the future.

..I had written a marvelous paragraph here refuting and clarifying and explaining…but I killed the little bastard and instead will say only what I said before, that this has nothing to do with Dr Jacobs, his book or my posts about them.

Now, whether or not you and Dr. Joseph think of them as Chaldeans and Nestorians, but NOT Assyrians, is irrelevant.

…it certainly hasn’t been up till this comment of yours…go back and read your posts. The point has been EXACTLY what to think of and call the Nestorians of Iraq.

They have many titles, to be sure, and many of them believe they are Jacobite, Catholic, Nestorian, but the majority of them have not dropped the Assyrian part of it,

…that’s only to say that they persist in their error..this is what Dr Jospeh would say and I agree.

judging by the fact that they still refer to themselves as Suraye, Atouraye, Suryoyo, Syriani, Athurnaye, Ashuraye, etc.

…whatever people call themselves or believe for themselves and by themselves isn’t a valid argument. We’re trying to get to what they actually might be and in this case, most especially...where there is solid evidence of much hanky panky and meddling and slipshod “history”, we have to be especially vigilant and “thorough”…remember?

all of which means the same thing, in different dialects.

...different dialects of their mother religion’s speech, which is Nestorian Aramaic and not Assyrian or Akkadian..but that’s a different issue we’ll get to in time.

Do you ever wonder why they DON'T ever drop these and just stick with Catholic, Jacobite, Nestorians? Because they THINK they are Assyrians, their parents think so, their grand parents think so, their children think so, their grandchildren thinks so, and THAT'S WHAT COUNTS! I THINK THEREFORE I AM. NO ONE

..it is not at all WHAT COUNTS! And, “I think therefore I am” says “I THINK”,,it doesn’t say, “I repeat therefore I am”. But if this is true, that what people think is all that counts… then what the arch Zionists who are murdering Palestinians, as the Christians who murdered the Jews “thought” was WHAT COUNTED!!! Most men still think women are sex animals and dummies, but that’s not WHAT COUNTS!!! Most Americans believed that Saddam and Iraq had to be punished because they believed Bush, believed what he said was WHAT COUNTED BECAUSE HE BELIEVED IT!!! And could you tone it down…while you think your capital letters are screaming the TRUTH…to me they increasingly indicate that this is your weakest point of all...which you seek to shove down my throat before I have a chance to look at what I’m swallowing.

has the right to tell them otherwise,

…to merely “tell” them…no. But that’s not what Dr Joseph does in his book…he doesn’t give his opinions and feelings or what he was taught as a child…he has read and studied extensively, is recognized by his associates and peers, honored by his students and his university and publisher…he has presented sources and a large bibliography so that anyone can check up on his facts, his uses of them and the conclusions he draws based on all of this…he does not just “tell” whatever he thinks.

NOT when Kurds can say they are Kurds, without anyone asking them for proof,

..they have their own proof…and I gave you one of them which you never responded to and that was…show me a map printed in the last 200 years that does not show a Kurdistan…or that shows an Assyria, that is dealing with the modern age…go ahead.

when applying Dr. Joseph's formula and your measuring stick to the scenario. Hell, If they can create a Kurdistan by hook or by crook, so can we create an Assyria, if we so damn please!

…of course you can, no one said you couldn’t… by hook or by crook…but never by begging and never with these “proofs” we think we have, even if there was an office somewhere that acted on such claims. We aren’t talking about what force and violence or even diplomacy “can” do…we’re talking about what these errors HAVE done.

If the Iraqi constitution is "based on historical realities" which is how they justified a Kurdistan, then the Assyrians CAN prove they have lived there longer than any Kurd!

…that constitution has nothing to do with the discussion,,,and the whole point to Dr Joseph’s book is that we CANNOT prove we are Assyrians…except to argue in circles that since we say we are, then we must be.

But if we have to ask for "proof" of nationality from anyone around the world, such as the way you and Dr. Joseph want to impose, then NO ONE in the world can prove who they are.

..Dr Joseph isn’t asking you to prove anything, unless you want to and think you can…neither am I and no one is “imposing” anything. We’re trying to have an intellectual discussion about a BOOK fer chrissakes!!! And neither one of us suggested anyone in the world has to show proof...and neither will the Kurds have to show any because it will be right there in Kurdistan and on their passports. He’s saying that the “proof” offered so far and in the past is erroneous…for which he provides valid sources…and yes, people can prove who they are, in a practical and not a fanciful manner, by providing a birth certificate or passport…for there you will see the nationality clearly spelled out…the French and Germans and everyone else has this sort of proof…we have only Iraqi passports and birth certificates…and that is all the poof anyone needs or is going to accept…the rest is talk.

Now you see how the burden of proof lays on Dr. Joseph. It is Dr. Joseph who has to PROVE to the world that we are NOT Assyrians.

…not at all. You cannot prove a negative, first of all. It’s impossible. Additionally, Dr Joseph is not making the claim that modern Assyrians exist, you are. Dr Joseph says Nestorians are mistaken in their belief, no matter how passionate, that they are modern Assyrians. Therefore Dr Joseph has only to provide evidence for his claim, which is that a series of errors and willful misrepresentation and venality too created the idea that the Nestorians are the descendants of the ancient Assyrians, and that later they took this up and came to believe it themselves, and he has provided his evidence for this belief…YOU are making the claim that You are modern Assyrian…therefore YOU have to provide the evidence for your claim…as Dr Joseph does for his…why should he provide his, and then your’s too…when you are opposing him…does that make sense?

This is the credibility Dr. Joseph lacks.

…not at all. You don’t have a correct definition of “credibility”. It is more likely that you lack credibility if you claim that Dr. Joseph lacks it because he won’t do as you say he must. Why must he? He has done what he must, which is to provide sources and the steps by which he reached his conclusions…for you to be credible, you have to do the same in support of your claims.

Until he has scientific and empirical EVEDINCE that we are NOT Assyrians,

…he has. He has shown where the errors were made…they are clearly spelled out in his book with sources provided, and if you don’t want to read it I’ve taken the time to quote passages and give his sources. He and I and many others are most eagerly waiting on your “empirical” proof that you are Assyrian…it is your responsibility to provide your own evidence for your claims…and not merely sit back, hurling insults, and negate whatever he laboriously gathers, after years of research and study, to lug up to your aerie for you to say “not empirical enough for me, try again.”

he is just speculating

…no, he isn’t. He has valid sources to back up every fact…I have seen none from you except I KNOW WHO I AM.

. Until then, we can claim anything we want, just the way any other nationality claims what they are!

…well of course you can. Dr Joseph never said you must stop…he’s just trying to clarify the issue of whether you are mistaken or not…and so far, by all measures, he’s shown you are mistaken…it remains for you to do two things at least…1. Go on claiming anything you want to “like everyone else”…which isn’t quite accurate for others have personal and official and legally recognized documents stating their nationality, as the Kurds will soon have, and you do not, not for any Assyria…or 2. Pull together whatever facts and sources you have to counter his…whereupon you will have some solid backing for your claims…but which you can, indeed, go on making anyway with no evidence…choice is yours.

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