The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> to carry on....

Posted by pancho (Guest) - Thursday, October 25 2007, 1:12:58 (CEST)
from 71.116.101.196 - pool-71-116-101-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net

Network -

Windows XP -

Internet Explorer
Website:
Website title:

Being scattered on the mountain or becoming extinct are two different things, in reality Assyrians survived not only on the mountains also in the cities of the plain. For example Harran which became the capital of the Assyrians after the fall of Nineveh was attacked twice but was not seriously damaged. The same can be said about Arbil, Nissibin and other smaller or out of the way towns. Harran was a thriving city way into the Islamic era when it was destroyed by the Mongols in the 13th century.

…no scholar in the field of Assyriology, or history and certainly not Dr Joseph ever claimed all Assyrians were physically wiped at the fall of Nineveh. This is red herring the religio-nationalsts use as a way of discrediting scholarship…to encourage their children to avoid “stupid” professors. The cities of Assyria remained, of course…after all Rome is still around…but the consciousness that the people there were Assyrians disappeared within a couple of centuries of the fall of Nineveh.

The major cities and towns in northern Iraq still bear their ancient names : Arbil; Assyrian Araba-illu, Tikrit; Assyrian Tikriti, Kirkuk; Assyrian 'Kirkha d' beit Suluk' or Arrapha- Nineveh; Assyrian Nineveh, Harran; Assyrian Harranu, Nissibin; Assyrian Nissibini, Alqoush; Assyrian Alquoushtu, Karmalish, Assyrian Kar-Mullissi, Mosul; Mespilla. Not even in Persia so many cities are still known by their ancient names.

….San Francisco and San Mateo and San Jose still retain their Spanish names..that doesn’t make the people living there today Spanish…or descended from Ferdinand and Isabella…neither are they subjects of King Juan Carlos. Rome is still Rome, but the Romans of today have no DNA from Julius Caesar.

The survival of these names indicates they continued to be inhabited by the same people as before the fall of Nineveh. If the original inhabitants no longer existed the new settlers of foreign origin would have called them by names more compatible with their own culture and language. The majority inhabitants of these cities are now Arabs and Kurds but they arrived after the 9th century A.D. and gradually increased in population while Assyrians continued to live there until now. By the 19th century not one inhabited city or town in southern Iraq was called by its Pre-christian name.

….Not at all….the people who continued living in Rome, or Babylon for that matter, two cities who “fell” centuries ago…still called that city Rome…indeed the the Goths said they revered Roman civilization and sought to save it…there was no reason at all to change names…as the lands conquered by the Assyrians, Egypt for example, kept their ancient names. This is a very weak argument…actually it’s just a ploy…because there exist several cases proving just the opposite. The English did indeed change New Amsterdam to New York…but no one thought to change the name America, derived from Amerigo Vespuci to England….or Germany…just because the majority of the new settlers or conquerors, came from those countries…

There is no reason to believe that Assyrians were wiped out during a relatively short period of time.

…None at all. This is a straw dog you bring up to “prove wrong”…no scholar has ever claimed such a thing. Assyrians were not phusically wiped out. Neither were the Chaldeans or Sumerians or Babylonians…the people and their genetic material remained, but the consciousness gradually receded helped on, no doubt, by the loss of their language.

..This is no different and no more strange than what you all warn your children about when you say that if they forget “their” language, in this case Aramaic, they will forget ‘who they are”. It was also true of the Assyrians who forgot their Akkadian language and adopted the language of the Arameans….in time they too forgot ho they were and became something new….as will happen in the West, as you keep warning us, when in 100 years or 200 more and more of our children forget Aramaic in turn..adopting Western languages and coming to see themselves AS those people…forgetting Syria and Iraq and Kipti and the rest of it….they wills till be your descendants…though not if they marry Muslims.

It is a known fact that nations have survived despite all attempts to destroy them. Fifty million dead during world war II did not cause the extinction of any nation. The persecution including wholesale massacres of the Jews during more than two thousand years of their history did not wipe them out. The Syriac speaking Christians of Mesopotamia, (Assyrians) of Iraq, Turkey, and Northwest Iran survived 2000 years of persecutions including repeated massacres by the Sassanian Persians, Arabs, Mongoles, Tatars, Kurds and Turks. Two third of the Assyrian population was murdered or forced into Islam between 1914 to 1919 by the combined military forces of the Kurds, Turks, Persians in an all out attempt to wipe them out but they prevailed despite their relatively small number and being concentrated in a small geographic area. The Armenians lost 1.5 million of their population at that time but they are still here.

..this is again the same bogus argument…yes indeed, these people have survived….because they kept their original language and could remember. That is not the case with us…for we forgot long long agao.

As Assyrialogists learn more about the history of the Christian Assyrians they become more convinced that they are the descendants of the ancient Assyrians. Robert D. Biggs, Archaeologist and professor of Assyrialogy in the University of Chicago writes: The '[i]mportance of Christianity in northern Iraq is probably little recognized in Europe or America." Having visited the early Christian monasteries in the region he asserts: "I think there is very likelihood that ancient Assyrians are among the ancestors of the modern Assyrians of the area." (Robert D. Biggs, 'My Career in Assyrialogy and Near Eastern Archaeology', Journal of Assyrian Academic Studies, vol. 19 No. 1, 2005 p.14.)

..the fact that he studied Christian monastaries sort of blows his thesis apart. Besides which “every likelihood” still deals only in “likelihood”…that’s hardly anything to hang an argument on…Christians are thrilled to think the ancients, and everyone else, adopted Christianity…the man gives no evidence at all for thinking the moderns are direct descedants..none at all. This is not the kind of sloppy analysis that Dr Joseph indulges in. No evidence is given as to WHY he thinks this way…except a visit to Christian monastaries and a “belief” that Christianity was very important to Iraq…also with no evidence or examples cited.

The third person from the bottom left represents Assyrians among the peoples
of the Turkish Empire in this 1626 map by John Speed

…sorry,,,you’re talking about Christians again.

The prominent Assyrialogist , H.W.F. Saggs, does not believe that Assyrians were defeated into extinction.
…again, NO one believes this.
He wrote: "The destruction of the Assyrian empire did not wipe out its population. They were predominantly peasant farmers, and since Assyria contains some of the best wheat land in the Near East, descendants of the Assyrian peasants would, as opportunity permitted, build new villages over the old cities and carry on with agricultural life, remembering traditions of the former cities. After seven or eight centuries and various vicissitudes, these people became Christians."
(H.W.F. Saggs, "The Might that Was Assyria" p. 290)

…yes…but “these people” were no longer conscious of being Assyrian..or Babylonian or Amorite or Sumerian…long before they had traded it all for the Aramean language and culture and THEN they became Christian.

…they were ALL “descendants” of the ancient people of that region…but not in a conscious sense.

Simo Parpola believes likewise: "Assyria was a vast and densely populated country, and outside the few urban centers life went on as usual."
(Simo Parpola, "Assyrians after Assyria", Journal of Assyrian Academic Studies, Vol. XIII No. 2, 1999, Chicago Ill.)

…life did go on…but with an influx of many new people such as Greeks, Persians, Jews, Arabs and Arameans…people the militarily weak Assyrians could no longer fight off, or assimilate.

From the Fall of Nineveh to Christianity
The Babylonian king Nabunaid 's (555-539) mother who died at the ripe age of 104, long after the fall of Nineveh, in an inscription mentions the surviving relatives and the officials of the Assyrian kings in Harran whom she accuses of not preforming food offering and libation to the graves of the monarchs who had done so much for them, but she contends that she did.
(James B. Prichard, Ed., "Ancient Near Eastern Text Relating to Old Testament", Princeton University Press 1950 p. 312.) If the relatives and the officials of the Assyrian kings had survived, there is no reason to believe the rest of the population was wiped out.

…the dates 555-539 fall within less than 200 years from the end of empire…of course there were survivors and of course they remembered and even worshipped Ashur…but they were an increasingly minor part of the new populations flooding the fertile lands…no one argues that the Assyrian consciousness survived a few hundred years…but not much beyond that.

In describing the Persian invasion of Assyria by the Persian king Cyrus Olmstead writes; after defeating the Medes he marched north into Assyria in 547 B.C... "Arbela, for so many centuries overshadowed by Ashur and Nineveh, regained its prestige as the new capital of Athura. Cyrus crossed the Tigris below Arbela, and Ashur fell; the gods of Ashur and Nineveh were saved only through refuge behind the walls of Babylon..." (Olmatead, "History of the Persian Empire" Chicago University Press 1959 p. 39)

…Well of course that region, famous back then, would have remained Assyria in name…and in that sense anyone at all being born there would have been born “in Assyria”…and could conceivably be called an Assyrian…but without any indication or intention to link him directly to the ancients….just as a a man from China can be born in Arizona, which is known as the land of the Navajo, without becoming an ethnic Navajo.

Other historical and archaeological discoveries attest to the survival of the Assyrians and Assyria during all centuries. Following are samples of such references which have been cited verbaitm so that this writer will not be accused of having misrepresented the intent of the original authors also to allow the readers judge their meaning for themselves. It is interesting that they and thousands of others like them are summarily ignored.

…that is good of you…

The mid 19th century translation of the Persian inscriptions attest to the existence of Assyria and Assyrians as part of the Persian empire.

…well of course they were…as there are Romans today…but we all know they are not direct descendants of Augustus.

The Nagshe Rostam inscription by Darius (512-48) which lists the national types of the Persian Empire includes the Assyrians . A reference to them reads as: "Iyam Asuryah", "this is an Assyrian" which is very similar to the term "Suryah" a name christian Assyrians have identified themselves by.
(Sukumar Sen, "Old Persian Inscriptions of the Achamenian Emperors," University of Calcutta 1941 p. 107)

…If you measure 200 years from the fall of Nineveh it brings you to 412 BC…no one, not Dr Joseph, or anyone else is claiming the Assyrian identity or memory was completely gone by then…but it was diminishing and would soon disappear completely….and the people now inhabiting “Assyrian cities” were not necessarily ethnic Assyrians…quite the contrary.

The Behistun inscription of Darius in the beginning of his rule lists 23 countries as part of his empire including: "Persis, Huza (Elam), Babiru (Babylon), Athura (Assyria)...."(Josef Wiesehofer, Azizeh Azodi Trans., "Ancient Persia From 550 BC to 650 AD, I.B. Tauris Publishers, 1969.)

…again, this falls within the 200 year era when the memory was most likely still alive…it has no bearing on the claim that you are an Assyrian.

In another inscription in Susa Darius writes; "The cedar timber, this -- a mountain named Lebanon -- from there was brought. The Assyrian people, it brought it to Babylon; from Babylon the Carians and the Ionians brought it to Susa. The yakâ-timber was brought from Gandara and from Carmania." Old Persian Texts: http://www.avesta.org/op/op.htm

…no one argues these dates and your point…it would be foolish to do so because it’s so inaccurate and defies reason and logic as well as what we know of other similar circumstances….but these dates and events lend no credence to your claims about being descended from the ancient Assyrians. Where is the relevancy?

"Proclaims Xerexes, the king: "By the favor of Ahura Meazda; these are the people/countries of which I was king of....Persia, Media, Elam, Armenia, Drangiana, parhia, Aria, Bactri a, Sogdia, Choresmia, Babylonia, ASSYRIA, Stagydia, Lydia, Egypt......" (Josef Wiesehofer, Azizeh Azodi Trans., "Ancient Persia From 550 BC to 650 AD, I.B. Tauris Publishers, 1969.)

…well of COURSE it was called Assyria. Hells bells the bible told everyone there what its name was…the Romans knew, years later, that there was an Assyria as part of their empire…and the people born there and living there would be called Assyrians…why the hell not? But that doesn’t mean they were ethnic Assyrians…

In a Trilingual Persepolis inscription ARTAXERXES II (c. 436 - 358 BC) OR III ( BC. to 338 BC.). among the twenty throne-bearers of various nationalities Assyrian representative is identified as; '17. This is the Assyrian'. http://www.avesta.org/op/op.htm

…same point. Any reference to “Assyria” does not mean the people living there WERE Assyrians…not in the sense that you’re trying to convey.

Those who question the identity of the contemporary Assyrians justify it by saying "they have been known primarily as Syrians and Surai during most of the christian Era." They seem not to realize that the region west of Euphrates was Called Syria becuase it did not have a known national identity and was part of the Assyrian empire.

..that isn’t true…and all of a sudden you ran out of “references” and “quotes”, in favor of quoting yourself….did you think we wouldn’t notice the shift? That region was the land of Aram, as the Aramaic bible clearly states…it was the Greek influence brought to bear by the Jews who translated the Aramaic bible into Greek for the use of their Hellenized brethren in Alexandria who changed Aram into Syria and Aramaic into Syriac….it most definitely had an identity and a language it gave to regions far beyond its own borders.

A new bilingual inscription in Hieroglyphic Luwian and Phoenician discovered in Turkey at Çineköy, in the vicinity of Adana by Recai Tekoglu and André Lemaire provides incontrovertible evidence that 'Surai' i.e, Syrian meant Assyrian to the Luwians the ally of the Assyrians long before Greeks used the term.

…where are the references and quotes you promised? You’re merely quoting yourself.

In one inscription dedicated to the storm god Baal, Warikas/Urikki, king of Hiyawa/Adana, i.e., Cilicia a contemporary of Tiglath-pileser III (744–727) and Sargon II (721–705).15 refers to "the/an Assyrian king' as "(su+ra/i-wa/i-ni-sa(URBS)) and the whole Assyrian “House” (su+ra/i-wa/i-za-ha(URBS)).."

…why would a “contemporary” NOT call the people Assyrians?

An eight century Rosetta Stone found near Adana in Luwian again identifies the Assryians as "SYRIANS [su+ra/i] and in Phoenician ASSYRIANS (“ ªSRYM”)." Simo Parpola also contends that "The word Assurayu, "Assyrian", thus also had a variant Surayu in late Assyrian times. Both terms refer to the same people: Assyrians/Syrians."

…these are the common errors you all propagate and “refer” to…this is all clearly explained in Dr Joseph’s book…which is filled with reference and extensive bibliography.

ROBERT ROLLINGER, "THE TERMS 'ASSYRIA' AND 'SYRIA' AGAIN," in JNES 65 no. 4 (2006), pp. 283-287.

The fifth century B.C. Herodotus describes the Assyrian troops as part of the Persian empire's army of king xerexes (486-465/4): "The Assyrians went to war with helmets upon their head, made of brass, and plated in strange fashion, which is not easy to describe. .... These people, whom Greeks call Syrian, are called Assyrian by the barbarians. Herodotus Barbarians meant the Persians, the Armenians and other none Greek." Assyrians and Babylonians together formed the fifth infantry and were led by Otaspes son of Artchaies. Andrew Robert Burn, Persia and the Greeks, the Defense of the west 546-478 B.C., Minerva Press 1962 p. 336.

….this is another error Dr Joseph points out…I’ll get the quote and post it…Herodotus is wrongly quoted…as Dr Joseph showed George Roux was…and deliberately too.

The presence of the Assyrian military in the Persian army is attested to by [a] bronze [conical shaped] Assyrian helmet from the 490 B.C. Battle of Marathon" presently at the Onassis Cultural Center in Greece. (Associated Press Writer, 'Artifacts show rivals Athens and Sparta' Yahoo News, December 5, 2006)

…again, no one is saying the Assyrians were completely wiped out down to the last man…that has never been the argument. In and around the quoted and referenced things you keep repeating, you managed to sneak in the usual errors…for which you gave no references at all…you Christians are clever at these tricks…you assumed people would read what you referenced as including what was merely your take on things….

The first century B.C. Strabo attests to the fact that Syria meant Assyria. He writes:" When those who have written histories about the Syrian empire say that the Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrian no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus; and of these Syrians, Ninus was the man who founded Ninus [Nineveh], in Aturia..[Assyria]. (H.L. Jones Translation of "Geography of Strabo", New York 1916, Vol. VIII p.195)

..this is another misreading…I’ll dig out Dr Joseph’s view.

While one has to admit that inhabitants west of Euphrates were not Assyrians, there is no reason to doubt the Assyrian identity of those living in the Assyria proper. According to Strabo the country of the Assyrians at his time included babylon and Aturia [Assyria]. Later he writes the name 'Syrians' extends from Babylon to the Gulf of Issus [the Mediterranean Sea]. (Strabo p.193) This was the extent of the Assyrian empire before its fall.

…this is all exactly what Dr Joseph, and others, point to as the nationalist’s re-writing of history, using past errors to maintain a front.

The third century Roman historian Justinus also attests to this fact. He wrote: "The Assyrians, who were afterwards called Syrians, held their empire for thirteen hundred years." (Marcus Junianus Justinus Epitome of the Philippic, "History of Pompeius Trogus", translated by Rev. John Selby Watson. (London: Henry G. Bohn, 1853)

…ditto.

The above references clearly prove that the term Syrians and Suraye applied to the inhabitants of Mesopotamia denoted Assyrians who later became Christians.

…far from it. In 1970 British scholars issued a translation of the bible in which they went back to the original Aramaic and replaced Syriac with Aramean….which is what the bible calls the people west of the Euphrates…and it was their language which came to dominate and soon caused the Assyrians to forget their own history…and then Christianity came along and wiped them all out.

Archaeological discoveries also indicate that the Assyrian community in Ashur "[c]ontinued to worship it's national god and his consort, on the same spot as their ancestors had done before the disasters of 612 B.C., although in a new temple. As late as AD 200-28, they were using such grand old personal names as Sin/ahe/erba, even Esarhaddon...." (Malcom A.R. Colledge, "The Parthians", Praegr, New York 1967, p.46.)

…Italians use Antony….to this day…it doesn’t make them his descendants.

Iraqi Department of Antiquities between 1951 and 1955, discovered nine temples in the city of Hatra dedicated to the Assyrian deities such as Shamash, Sin, Nebo, Nergal and one to the Assyrian God, "Ashur Bel " The head of the Ashur Bel's statue found in Hatra is broken, but the remaining curled square beard is characteristically similar to the imperial Assyrian kings. (Edward Bacon, "Digging for History", Archaeological Discoveries Throughout the World, 1945 to 1959", New York 1960, p. 205.)

…knowing you as I do…these reference all have to be checked, carefully. You work for God who forgives his employees every sort of murder and chicanery.

Excavations by a team of British archaeologist from Edinburgh University at the Eski Mosul Dam Basin in 1983 unearthed solid evidences of Assyrian survival after their defeat. A heavy Assyrian presence was detected in the area only 40 km to the north-east of Nineveh.(Associated Press report reprinted in Nineveh Magazine, Vol 7 No. 3& 4, 1984)

..you need to be more specific…what is lacking is evidence that the people called THEMSELVES Assyrians….and meant by that that they recognized the sort of direct, lineal relation you moderns are claiming…and not just that they were born in the land known as Assyria etc. Find that and you’ve found your missing link.

The Christian Era
According to The Teaching of Addaeus the Apostle "people of the East, in the guise of merchants, passed over into the territory of the Romans, that they might see the signs which Addaeus did. And such as became disciples received from him ordination to the priesthood, and in their own country of the Assyrians they instructed the people of their nation, and erected houses of prayer there in secret, by reason of the danger from those who worshiped fire and paid reverence to water. "http://www.biblefacts.org/ecf/vol8/anf08-143.htm

..these are religious myths…and lies. There was no King Abgar who converted anybody.

The second century Tatian identified himself as Assyrian. He wrote, "I was born in the land of the Assyrians.."
…that doesn’t make him ethnically Assyrian…you can be born in the land of the Chinese…and remain French in ethnicity…all that region was occupied by Rome at one time…many Romans were born in Spain or Gaul….you have to be careful how you throw things around.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-36.htm
His contemporary Lucian of Samostosa, in his "Goddess of Syria" wrote : "I that write [this] am "Assourious" [Assyrian]".
(Lucian, Translated by A.M. Harmon, Vol. IV, "The godesse of Surrye", London 1925 p.339.)

..other scholars claim he did not mean he was ethnically Assyrian.

Prepon, the Assyrian, who was a student of Marcion is said to have introduced a new theological philosophy based on a work by Bardaisan who claimed that world is managed by good and evil.
http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/library/hyp_refut7.htm

According to Tacitius in the winter of 50 A.D. the forces of Carenes crossed the river Tigris and entered Adiabene and "captured the city of Ninos, the most ancient capital of Assyria" prior to waging war against the Parthian king Gotarzes on behalf of Meherdates the contender to the throne. (Cornelius Tacitius, Edi. Robert Maynard Hutchis"The Annals and The Histories"; , Copyright Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc. 1952 p.112.)

…these are geographical names…such as the name Chaldean Church, which Rome gave to BUIULDING located in ancient Chaldea…with no implication that the new Catholics were of ancient Chaldean stock…something you ALL agree with.

The Assyrialogist Joan Oates writes: "The site of Nineveh, a city which survives in modern Mosul, was never in fact forgotten ..."Joan Oates babylon (P. 143) She further adds : Nineveh which was considered by them [classical writers ] to have been in ruin after 612 B.C. we know to have been the site of a considerable city during both the Seleucid and Parthian periods [330 B.C. -224 AD]." ( Joan Oates, "Babylon", Thames and Hudson, London 1971 p. 142)

…she wrote this, but she was wrong. It was her assumption…this too is covered in Dr Joseph’s book.

In describing Trajan's 116 AD invasion o f Mesopotamia Roman Historian Dio Cassius wrote: "And the Romans crossed over and gained possession of the whole of Adiabene. This is a district of Assyria in the vicinity of Ninus [Nineveh] and Arabela and Gaugamela (Goomla) near which places Alexander conquered Darius, are also in the same country accordingly , has been called Atyria [Attur] in the language of the barbarians, the double S being changed to T."(Dio Cassinus, Earnest Cary trans."Dio's Roman History", Book LXVIII, William Heinemann London 1955 p. 411)

..once again, this is merely a statement of historical and geographical fact….I can “visit Rome” today…it doesn’t mean I chatted with Julius Caesar

Even during the Sassanian dynasty of Persia (224-639 A.D.) the southern part of Mesopotamia was known as Asuristan while central Assyria was renamed Nod-Ardakhshiragan [Perhaps belonging to Ardakhshir]. It is interesting to note that while the conquerors of central Assyria Changed its name first to Adiabene and later to Nodshiragan and then to Iraq, Christian inhabitants of the region continued to call it Assyria and identified themselves as Assyrian [Aturaye] side by side with Syrian [Suraye].

…where are your direct quotes? You know, so we can “believe” you. Those were your words.

In an inscription; lands ruled by Shapur I, (241-276 A.D.) are listed as "Fars [Persia], Pahlav [Parthia], Kuzistan, Meshan, Asuristan [southern Mesopotamia} and Nod-Ardakhshiragan [Assyria Ruled by Ardashir] ........." (Josef Wiesehofer, Azizeh Azodi Trans., "Ancient Persia From 550 BC to 650 AD, I.B. Tauris Publishers, 1969.)

..once again, you’ re confusing with recognition of the name of the ancient LAND with the ethnicity of the people ON the land…the same mistake Layard made.

The medieval writer Tabari indicates that Mesopotamia was called Asuristan during the Sassanian period before Arab conquest of the region: "Ardashir's further advanced from Media described a large curve through Adurbadagan/Atropatene, Nodshiragan/Adiabene to Asuristan/Assyria (Iraq), where he conquered the capital of the Parthian Empire, Seleucia-Ctesiphon, probably in 226/227 AD."
(http://www.britac.ac.uk/events/programmes/2004/abstracts/asia-alram.html)

…this pattern is interesting. Some direct quotes are given, in accordance with Warda’s introduction reassuring us that he would provide them so we could “believe”….but scattered in between are merely his interpretation of things he doesn’t quote, but only gives reference to…this is the same thing all of them do….and they leave it up to you to run down and ferret out the truth of it…which is something an accredited and trained professional doesn’t do…mostly because a real book, published by real publishers..or real magazines, have editors, a board of review, scholars to review and in general subject manuscripts to evaluation by other experts…none of which Warda, or Aprim or any of them come even close to. I have every confidence in someone who is at least rigorously trained and held to high standards…I’ve learned not to trust these writers of pop-history.

That inhabitants of Mesopotamia were known as Assyrians by the Persians is evident in their religious book of 'Zand-i Vohuman Yasht' in the Pahlavi language. In one section it accuses the Greeks (Yunan) who ruled in Asuristan (330-145 B.C.) were slaying the [Asori] Assyrian people and destroying their abode.
(http://www.avesta.org/pahlavi/vohuman3.html)

…this is still well within the time of the MEMORY of an Assyria and an Assyrian people…it says nothing about your claims.

The Armenians who have lived side by side with the Assyrians have always called them Assori, i.e Assyrian as have other nationalities. Following is an early century Armenian document "perhaps the earliest original writing in Classical Armenian. This reading is taken from Books V and VI." which describes how an Assyrian bishop was instrumental in inventing the Armenian alphabet in 420 AD.

…I’ll get the quotes from Dr Joseph’s book on this…this is another error that’s been hallowed by time and misuse.

"..having devoted themselves to a great examination of experiment and investigation, and having endured great labors, they then made an announcement of their own searching to the king of the Armenians, whose name was called Vramshapuh. Then the king told them about a certain man called Daniel by name, an Assyrian bishop of noble origin, who had elsewhere devised letters of the alphabet for the Armenian language. And when this was related to them by the king about the writing from Daniel, they prompted the king to take care according to their needs. And by decree he sent someone, Vahrich by name, to an elderly man whose name they called Habel, who was an acquaintance of the Assyrian bishop Daniel."

…I’d have to see that HE called himself an “Assyrian Bishop” and that it isn’t you doing it, assuming that as a Christian he HAD to be an Assyrian.

(A. Richard Diebold Center for Indo-European Language and Culture (http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/armol-4-R.html)

According to the 19th century Badger "In many Syriac [Assyrian] manuscripts, Mosul is styled as Athur [Assyria] and it is not uncommon practice with ecclesiastical writers of the present day to use the same phraseology". (Henry Burgess, The Repentance of Nineveh, Sampson Low: Son and Co., London 1853, p. 36n.) Gesenius writes, "In Syriac Church literature 'Athur' [Assyria] is the name of Mosul, on the bank of the Tigris opposite to Nineveh; but it also designates a metropolitan see, including Mosul, Nineveh and other towns." (Stephanie Dalley, Nineveh after 612 B.C. , Alt-Orientanlishce Forshchungen #20, 1993, p .134)

…you added the (Assyrian), in brackets…that’s you playing fast and loose again….almost all the missionaries were against changing the name of the Nestorians from Syrians. You take it for granted that you’ve “proven” your point; that Syrian REALLY means Assyrian…and from that moment on use it as an established fact…this is another of your favorite games…all in the service of your church.

While the rest of the world believed that Nineveh had been destroyed and forgotten and Assyrians no longer existed Christians of Mesopotamia knew such was not the case.
…..scholars thought no such thing…
For the last 2000 years Assyrians of the Church of the East, the Syrian Orthodox Church, later the Chaldean Church have observed the fast of Ninevites which is testimony to the survival of the Assyrians and their belief that they were descendants of the ancient Assyrians.

..not at all. That isn’t what the Rogation is about…it’s about how anyone, even someone as BAD as the Ninevites can be forgiven if they repent..it has nothing to do with proving YOU are Assyrian because you “remember” a fast.

Nineveh became an important center of the Assyrian Christianity. It was presided by a long list of bishops from 554 to the late ninth century. Later its bishopric was transferred to Mosul. Mar Emmeh, the Bishop of Nineveh was elected Patriarch of the Church of the East and served in that position between A.D. 644 to 647. Ishu-Yahav was the bishop of Nineveh (627-637) when the byzantine forces under the command of Herculius defeated the Persians near that city in 627. He fled to his estate in the mountain during the war fearing that he might be taken prisoner by the Byzantine. ((William G. Young, "Patriarch, Shah and Caliph", Christian Study Center, Rawalpindi, Pakistan 1974, p. 87)

…now we’re entering Christian mythology wherein you claim the Assyrians converted to Christianity…the PEOPLE of that region converted, either willingly or thogu force…but those people had long since forgotten that THEY were ethnic Assyrians…while still remembering the name and story of Assyria and referring to themselves as “born in Assyria”.

…you people do this primarily to deny that Assyrians converted to Islam…so you create the myth that ONLY Assyrians and ALL Assyrians converted to Christianity so that ANY Christioan there MUST be a direct descendant of the ancients…see how silly it is when you lay out simply?

In a letter between (650-52) he invited a certain Shimoun to come and see him in nineveh. ("William young' patriarch, Shah) During his term the country was torn by wars between the Arab invaders and the Persians. Another famous bishop of Nineveh was Ishag (Isaac) Ninevaya, who served in that position for only six months in 660 A.D. Maran-Zakah served as bishop of Nineveh between 795-798. Other prominent citizens of Nineveh were Ehu-Bar-Noon, patriarch (820-824), Yohanan Bokht-Eshu Metropolitan of Nineveh (850 - A.D.), Annush d' Beith Garmee, Patriarch (873-884). (J.M. Fiey, O.P., Assyrie Chretienne, Imprimerie Catholique, Beyrouth, 159, pp.488-493.)

…this is your Period of Propaganda….where every Christian in Iraq becomea a direct descendant of the ancients….which hasn’t been proven at all…quite the contrary.

The Islamic Period
Those who have expressed doubt about the identity of the Assyrians have done so primarily as a matter of opinion and confusion of historical facts. While they can undrestandt the term Indian when applied to the native Americans has a different meaning than when it refers to the people of India they seem to be unable to realize that Syrian in reference to the Christians of Mesopotamia means Assyrian.

..it does not. There is no doubt of the error Columbus made.,…as there is none in the error you are trying to sanctify.

This is evident in the writings by writers whose knowledge of the Christian Assyrian history is limited. Gavin Menzies in his "1421 The Year China Discovered America" rightly credits the Church of the East, otherwise known as Nestorian, for having taken Christianity to China, but he claims that the church thrived in Syria during the sixth century. (Kevin Menzies, "1421 The Year China Discovered America", Harper Collins 2003 p.115) In fact the Church of the East was outlawed in the Byzantine empire including Syria. It prospered in Mesopotamia under the Persian rule and it was from Assyria that missionaries went to China, India and Japan, among other places.

…this is all Chriatian “history”…has nothing to do with the ancient Assyrians.

Thimithy I (770-823), patriarch of the Church of the East in a letter to the monks of Mar Marun declares that Babylonia, Persia and Assyria, all the countries of the East, such as India and China were under his jurisdiction. (William G. Young, "Patriarch, Shah and Caliph", Christian Study Center, Rawalpindi, Pakistan 1974, p.152)

When Arab Geographer Al Mas-udi visited Nineveh in 943 A.D. He described it as a complex of ruins in the middle of which there are several villages and farms, " It was to these settlements that god sent Jonah" he wrote. (Brian M. Fagan, Return to babylon, Little, Brown & Co., Canada p.18.) This statement echoed the sentiments of the Christian Assyrians. Some of the better known Assyrian villages of Nineveh at that time were: 'Takshur', mentioned by Bar Awraya, 'Tarrut D' Nineveh ' [Gate of Nineveh], 'Ba Gabbari' [ the Braves], the birth place of Patriarch Ishu Barnon located between the walls of Nineveh and Mosul, , mentioned by Yagut in 1220 . 'Bori', where a beautiful church was built in the 7th century, consecrated by Mar Yokhanan Metropolitan of Adiabene, and 'Gorba' , a Jacobite Assyrian village. (J.M. Fiey, O.P., Assyrie Chretienne, Imprimerie Catholique, Beyrouth, 159, pp.488-493.) Assyrian towns north of Ninveh at that time which still exist today were, Algosh, Tel Ke, Baghdeda, Baqofa, Bartella, Karmales, Egra, Zakhoo, Amedia.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

From here on it becomes what someone “asserts”…and all quotes are taken from Christian sources who already believe what they believe…that and ‘errors” which are also dealing with Christians and their claims….we’ve left the realm of the things that relate to how the moderns came to think of themselves as Assyrians…which hasn’t been dealt with, only taken for granted.

The translator of the "Latin history of Paulus Orosius", into Arabic about 961-976 AD, more than a thousand years ago correctly equated the Latin "Assyri" [Assyrian] with the Arabic word "al-Suryaniyyun" i.e. the Christians of Mesopotamia, Suraye and Suryoye. (Abdel Rahman Badawi Ed. "Orosius, Tarikh Al 'Alam", Al Muassasa al Ararabiyya lil Dirasat wal Nashr, Beirut, First Edition, 1982.)

The Syrian Orthodox Patriarch Michael the great (1126-99) wrote:
In the first half of the 9th century "the Greeks were offending the Jacobites by saying: 'Your Syrian sect has no importance neither honor, and you did never have a kingdom, neither an honorable king'. the Jacobites answered them by Saying that even if their name is "Syrian", but they are originally "Assyrians" and they have had many honorable kings.... Syria is in the west of Euphrates, and its inhabitants who are talking our Aramaic language, and who are so-called 'Syrians', are only a part of the 'all', while the other part which was in the east of Euphrates, going to Persia, had many kings from Assyria and Babylon and Urhay. (History of Mikhael The Great" Chabot Edition (French) P: 750) as quoted by Addai Scher, Hestorie De La Chaldee Et De "Assyrie")

The 13th century Gewargis Warda Arbillaya [from Arbil] asserts that the syriac speaking people of Mesopotamia are Assyrian and Babylonians. On the occasion of the Fast of the Ninevites he wrote:
"Our lord heed the rogation (Ba-oota): of the Babylonians and Assyrians [Athouraye]
Now that Church leadership is distressed and confused.
"Our lord heed the request (Ba-oota) of our destitute country,
I glorify your Godliness and ask for your forgiveness. (Odisho Malko Gewargis, trans. Yuel A Baaba, "We are Assyrians", JAAS, Vol. XVI, Np. 1, 2002 p.84.)

For Gewargis Warda Assyrians were not just the inhabitants of the Mosul and Nineveh as it is some times claimed. He was from Arbil and considered the Christians living in northern and southern Mesopotamia as Assyrians and babylonians. While the name of the country was changed to Iraq by the Arabs since the 7th century AD Assyrians continued to refer to it as Assyria.

The Barber geographer Ibn-Battuta, who traveled to northern Mesopotamia in the 14th century acknowledged the existence of Nineveh and wrote:"There too is the hill of Nabi Yunus, (prophet Jonah), (upon whom be peace) and about a mile from it, the spring called by his name. It is said that he commanded his followers to purify themselves in it. .... In it's vicinity is a large village, near which is a ruined site said to be the site of the city known as Nineveh, the city of 'yunus' . The remains of the encircling walls are still visible, and the position of the gates that were in it are clearly seen.". (Brian M. Fagan, Return to Babylon", Kuttke, Brown & Com., Canada, 1979, p.17)

Ibn-Battuta also noted that the Nabi Yunus mosque of Nineveh was once a Christian church before being confiscated by the Arabs. This edifice still stands, according to Wigram it was once the cathedral of the independent patriarch of Nineveh or See of Nineveh. Moslems believe that the prophet Jonah is buried at that site but such is not the case.

Assyrian writer Bar Saliba a decade or two before Ibn-Battuta identified the person buried in the site as patriarch Hannan Yeshua of the church of the East who was elected to that office during the caliphate of Abd 'ool-Melek ibn Merwan, cir. AD 686. He wrote: "Hanan-Yeshua resided in the convent of the prophet Jonah, which is situated on the western side of the wall of Nineveh facing the eastern gates of Mosul, and the river Tigris separates the cities. When he died, he was buried here, in a coffin made of ebony,.." "George Percy Badger, "Nestorians and their Rituals", notes to page 87 DD)

The fact that Christians of Mesopotamia considered Nineveh the capital of Assyria as an important part of their christianity despite all the hateful Old Testament references to it and they commemorated a yearly fast called 'The Fast of the Ninevites' as a tribute to the survival of their forefathers indicates their strong dedication to their Assyrian identity.

The Vatican documents indicate that when the Chaldean Church was established by Sulaga in 1553, Pope Julius III proclaimed him patriarch of "Mosul and Athur" on Feb. 20, 1553. (Catholic Encyclopedia, "Chaldean Rite ", 1967, Vol. III, pp.427-428) Roman documents originally refer to Sulaga as the elected patriarch of "the Assyrian Nation". (Xavier Koodapuzha, "Faith and Communion in the Indian Church of Saint Thomas Christians, Oriental Institute of Religious Studies, Kerala, India, p.59)

According to the Chronicle of the Carmelites Sulaga was proclaimed "Patriarch of the Eastern Assyrians" but on 19, 4, 1553 he was redefined as the "Patriarch of the Chaldeans". Perhaps the change of mind was intended to distinguish between those who joined the Catholic Church verses those who did not or may be it was a matter of associating these new Catholics with the Nestorians of Cyprus who were labeled Chaldeans by Pope Eugene IV on August 7, 1445 after they joined the Roman Catholic church. (George V. Yana (Bebla), "Myth vs. Reality" JAAStudies, Vol. XIV, No. 1, 2000 p. 80)

Edward Odisho quotes Konstantin Tseretely that "Assyrians who live in the Soviet Union call themselves and their mother tongue Assyrian, an appellation which occurs in the 18th century Georgian documents." Tseretely further writes; "In correspondences between the Georgian King Irakli II and Mar Shimoun in the years 1769 and 1770 Mar Shimoun refers to himself as the "Assyrian Catholicos" and the King identifies Mar Shimoun's people as "Assyrians."

According to another source the Georgian king Irakli II in 1770's established contacts with the Yezidies and used the Assyrian Archbishop Ishaya as mediator . Irakli II sent a letter to the Yezidi leader Choban- Agha in which he proposed a none-Muslim coalition of the Yezidies, Armenians and Assyrians against the Ottoman Sultan. (Lamara Pashaeva, "Yezidi Social Life in the ocmmon wealth of Independent States" Kurdishmedia.com, Nov. 2004)

In a letter dated May 26, 1784 adressed to the Russian General Paul S. Potemkin, the Russian Colonel Stephan D. Burnashev writes "There are 100 villages inhabited by Assyrians in the domain of the Khan of Urmiye, in addition , some 20,000 families reside withing the borders of Turkey." (George Bournoutian, "Armenians and Russia (1626-1796): A Documentary Record", Coasta Mesa, California: Mazda Publishers. Inc., 2001.)

Even before the archaeologist Austen Henry had published his book about his ancient Assyrian discoveries Horatio Southgate in 1843 visited the Syrian Orthodox communities of Turkey and reported they identified themselves as Assyrians in the form of "Suryoyo, Othoroyee". He writes:

"I observed that the Armenians did not know them under the name which I used, SYRIANI; but called them ASSOURI, which struck me the more at the moment from its resemblance to our English name ASSYRIANS, from whom they claim their origin, being sons, as they say, of Assour, (Asshur,) who 'out of the land of Shinar went forth, and build Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah, and Resin between Nineveh and Calah; the same is a great city..
(Horatio Southgate, "Narrative of a Visit to the Syrian [Jacobites] Church", 1844 P 80)

The above are examples of hundreds and even thousands references which attest to the survival of the Assryians since the fall of Nineveh which prove that they did not vanish after their defeat. They in fact continued to live in their ancient homeland and have been there since. Some however were forced to flee into the mountains north of Mosul, cities of northwest Persia and southeast Turkey i.e. the Tur-Abedin area which had been part of Assyria before its fall. In one inscriptions the Persian king Darius identifies the region as Assyria. Given such facts and hundreds of others undeniable evidences it is unconscionable to question their Assyrian heritage.

The names Suraya, Suryoyo they have identified themselves with, the terms Syrian and Suryani they have been called by are obvious variations for Asuraya and Assyrian. If the nationality of a people is based on a common descent, shared language, history, culture, easily recognizable homeland, and other aspects of nationality Assyrians clearly fit the description. They have called themselves Assyrians, they have lived in the homeland of the ancient Assyrians since before the fall of Nineveh, have identified their country as Assyria, and have considered the ruins of its ancient capital as their sacred city during the Christian centuries. No one in good conscious can deny this.

In many ways today's Assyrian national identity is far more certain than that of other nations who are a composite of various people. Unlike others Assyrians after their fall did not have a military or political powers to force their identity on others. Their survival for such a long time can be attributed to the fact that they spoke a different language, and worship a different religion than the nations who conquered their land, also because their country was relatively isolated.

…this is the best collection of bunk to date. Considerable time and effort went into fabricating it, obviously. I’m not a scholar by any means…but I’ve communicated with Warda and one thing is certain; he didn’t write any of it. He also isn’t a scholar…just a propagandist and a Christian one at that,

No one seriously asserted that the ancient Assyrians were wiped out…no one. Therefore all the “proof” that the cities went on, with their former names even, and that people lived in those cities, has no bearing on the fact that the people themselves lost all conscious knowledge that they were direct descendants of the people of BetNahrain.

The fact that people knew the “land of the Assyrians” doesn’t mean ethnic Assyrians, of any “pure” type, remained. Of course the people went on breeding…as they do in America…but soon all conscious awareness of their ancient heritage was forgotten….and it’s still not known to most Assyrians.

As far as the references cited which seek to prove that people called THEMSELVES Assyrians, even if true…is no more than the same error, maybe even for the same reason, as the one being committed by Warda…the pope used the name Chaldean as a geographical name for the Catholic church established in the ancient “land of the Chaldeans”….it had no etnic connotation…likewise the Archbishop of Canterbury’s “Mission to the Assyrians" had no ethnic implication either but simply meant to the people of what was still known, especially by bible-folk as "Assyria".

What all this rest upon, once you strip Jesus and competing claims about who is what...is the notion that Suraye always meant Aturaye....a word we have never used in the past to refer to ourselves as....others may have, but we always called ourselves Suraye....until the 19th Century. I'll put Dr Joseph's explanation of this up here....so we can compare.

---------------------

- BACK TO INDEX - REPLY - QUOTE - EDIT - DELETE -

The full topic:

From Wm Warda... pancho - Sunday, October 21 2007, 23:17:19 (CEST)
- to carry on.... pancho - 10/25 01:12

Content-length: 51891
Content-type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded
Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/x-shockwave-flash, application/vnd.ms-excel, applicatio...
Accept-encoding: gzip, deflate
Accept-language: es-mx
Cache-control: no-cache
Connection: Keep-Alive
Cookie: *hidded*
Host: www.insideassyria.com
Referer: http://www.insideassyria.com/rkvsf5/rkvsf_core.php?From_Wm_Warda-6Ept.Gacg.REPLY
User-agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; InfoPath.1)