Re: well...

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Posted by farid from customer-148-233-78-77.uninet.net.mx (148.233.78.77) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 at 1:31PM :

In Reply to: well... posted by Sadie from ? (160.129.27.22) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 at 11:04AM :

: : ****I´ve heard about men´s insecurity where women are concerned...and I don´t think that´s quite it. Men are insecure around other men...they dislike women intensely because any closeness or rapport with women means the guy might not be manly enough to hold his own around other men...and if truth be told, most men would be alot happier in life holding the OTHER guy´s own. Let´s face it...80% of men are homosexual in the complete sense of the word...the like men...NOT women. They have one, maybe two, uses for women and that´s about it.

: xxx That's a good point. Forgot about that: men who don't even see women as equal humans, but as livestock.

: : : Advice I've learned from other women these past few years: The best way to avoid a lot of sexual harassment is to dress & to act professionally at the work place, even if everyone else is casual.
:
: : ***I said the same thing once years ago to a gorgeous flower-child who´d had to come to earth and work for a stint as secretary for the Public Defender´s juvenile division in Seattle. She wore these diaphanous dresses that would have been gorgeous anywhere BUT where she was. It was all the lawyers could do to keep their eyes off of all the places on her...and she had places that were just lovely. Being a confirmed man-hater myself, she and I got on rathjer well...a little too well towards the end...but I said "no"...said I was saving myself. Anyway, one day she was complaining about all the unwanted attention she was getting for men and the nasty looks from women not as blessed as she´s been and I suggested something along the lines you just did..that she shouldn´t be surprised at the response if she was going to dress so gorgeously tantalizing..in THAT drab atmosphere no less. She said she knew all about that but she was damned if she was going to make herself over because men were so rude or ill-behaved...that she was going to be herself...even if that meant being gorgeous...and the rest of them would just have to improve their behavior. I had to admit she had a point...I mean weren´t talking about going for walks alone late at night because she just felt like it...screw the consequences...she was talking about her right as a free human...albeit a woman, to dress in whatever manner she felt most complimented her..after all...she was the first to see herself every morning in the mirror. Men can´t use a variation of the argument that, "Hey, she was wearing a dress...what did she EXPECT"? You might as well say you stole that Mercedes because some damn fool went and left it where you could be TEMPTED. The Law is supposed to cover that sort of thing and the more women fight the notion that they should dress down, or act down to the low level men occupy...the sooner we´ll leave this stuff behind...and the sooner men will feel comfortable coming out of the collective closet.

: xxx She makes a good point, HOWEVER, I'd rather a male colleague think I'm a bore than a sex object.

***You are NOT a sex object, or not, by what you wear or do. Remember...just by BEING a woman it´s assumed you are "there and available". Why do you, or I, have to go on even caring what THAT kind of a male thinks? It´s his fucking problem...let HIM work it out.

If I want to look sexy or pretty, I'll wait until I am in the company of friends or dates that I want to impress in that way.

***You´re assuming that my lady wanted to impress men "that way". That was why she was burned up...you know damn well that you don´t have to DO a damn "sexy" thing to provoke THAT kind of a male. He´s so fucking up tight about being Gay he reacts to ANYTHING. She merely wanted the same freedom I have...to wear what I want when I want it with NEVER a though to what some other idiot is going to think.. No one said social change was an easy thing to accomplish...you have any idea what women went through just for the fucking VOTE?

I honestly don't care what a man thinks about me at work. & WHY should I pander to the latest sexpot trends, either? Especially those "Britney Spears" outfits, which often incorporated those ugly, weird ultra low-rise pants that give an otherwise fit & trim woman love-handles (because of the way those things pinch in below the navel).... So, I'd rather go with the "classic" but "boring" look (& actually, if you're a young & pretty girl, the "classic" look can be quite flattering). Save the trendy stuff for nightclubs & romantic dinners, if you WANT to wear them.... Personally, I just like clothing that has a more elegant look to it. I don't like to look like a modern sexpot or a hippie sexpot. & besides, why is it that women in the States are taught to think that they MUST dress sexy? Isn't that a gender stereotype/cultural construct, anyway? Why do women have to scream "sex" through their clothes? Why aren't women taught to dress to look, say, *intelligent*? Why should I care about the latest trends in clothing being pushed at me by a misogynist magazine editor or male dominated society? Perhaps dressing "plain" is my response to the male chauvanists who would like to see me degrade myself by dressing like a prostitute?

***The only way to ultimately gain all those benefits you refer to is to take THE BATTLE TO HIM! Wear what you want...or nothing at all..and ask the asshole in a loud voice, "what is YOUR problem"?

***You know how many times I´ve stopped myself from looking at a woman´s legs, or a MAN´s...because even though I may be looking at a lousey pair...for artistic reasons of course...I think it´s an invasion of privacy...so I DON´T. Let otyher´s practise the same restraint...they have to when it comes to snatching purses and stealing money that´s hanging out of shirt pockets. Let´s be "Politically correct" ALL THE WAY.

: : ***Someone opined once that men have been practising selective breeding of women for centuries...

: xxx & bred women who were of shorter/smaller stature than men & had certain features on their bodies (bigger or smaller breasts, depending on culture, etc.)...
:
: : Sure, you can chat with people at work, but make sure you don't become the object of malicious gossip (keep your private life out of the picture or as discreet as possible). Watch for people who have no tact - even someone lacking tact can pose a problem for you in the future (e.g. will he/she start telling others things about you you don't want to be shared with others?). In other words, try to control your work environment so that you only interact with people who will be good/fair to you. If someone tries to create problems for you, avoid that person so that that person doesn't create even bigger problems for you in the future....

: : ***I don´t know...I understand the dilemna...but I could almost hear the advice of a few generations ago that warned women in similar ways not to "offend". Or advice for Blacks on how to not rouse Whitey. Even cops used to advice women who were about to be raped to, "Not put up a struggle because that might piss your attacker off...and things could get worse". There are legal and procedural options open to women that weren´t there when rapoed and abused women were the ones attacked in court for "provoking" attacks...and women were made to feel shame so they would be too ashamed to step forward and denounce the son of a bitch...who sure as hell would go out and rape her daughter or mother or sister next.

: xxx No, no, no. This is different. I'd sure as hell complain or press charges against anyone who tries to hurt or harass me.... However, I'm speaking about preventative measures. Why befriend someone at work (who may want to befriend you more than you him), who is just a trouble-maker? Most likely he's already causing trouble for other people, & why get stuck in that mess as well?

*****I don´t know on what basis you "befirend" people...but the way you set him up..hardly seems like friend material. On the other hand...why do you have to pull your pun ches because nature made men idiots? Whom do you think has been civilizing men since the beginning? You gonna quit now, when your ancestors fought the really hard battles, just because it get´s a little hard for ums?

I'm just saying that a smart woman can sense things about other people, &, from the beginning, exercise some control over her interactions with idiots (so that she doesn't get stuck in their messes). That's all. BY ALL MEANS, like with my friend, if someone does you wrong & it's not something small you can get over, then complain or press charges (depending on the seriousness of the case).

***hear hear.

-- farid
-- signature .

Follow Ups:

here's a REALLY good article - Sadie 1:04PM 06/27/2003 () (1)

Re: here's a REALLY good article - farid 3:32PM 06/27/2003 () (0)

clarification - Sadie 6:22PM 06/26/2003 () (0)

Re: well... - Sadie 2:19PM 06/26/2003 () (4)

ya know - Sadie 2:43PM 06/26/2003 () (3)
- Re: ya know - farid 3:33PM 06/27/2003 () (0)
- the effect - Sadie 6:32PM 06/26/2003 () (1)
  - Re: the effect - farid 3:35PM 06/27/2003 () (0)

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Message:	: : : **I´ve heard about men´s insecurity where women are concerned...and I don´t think that´s quite it. Men are insecure around other men...they dislike women intensely because any closeness or rapport with women means the guy might not be manly enough to hold his own around other men...and if truth be told, most men would be alot happier in life holding the OTHER guy´s own. Let´s face it...80% of men are homosexual in the complete sense of the word...the like men...NOT women. They have one, maybe two, uses for women and that´s about it. : : xxx That's a good point. Forgot about that: men who don't even see women as equal humans, but as livestock. : : : : Advice I've learned from other women these past few years: The best way to avoid a lot of sexual harassment is to dress & to act professionally at the work place, even if everyone else is casual. : : : : : I said the same thing once years ago to a gorgeous flower-child who´d had to come to earth and work for a stint as secretary for the Public Defender´s juvenile division in Seattle. She wore these diaphanous dresses that would have been gorgeous anywhere BUT where she was. It was all the lawyers could do to keep their eyes off of all the places on her...and she had places that were just lovely. Being a confirmed man-hater myself, she and I got on rathjer well...a little too well towards the end...but I said "no"...said I was saving myself. Anyway, one day she was complaining about all the unwanted attention she was getting for men and the nasty looks from women not as blessed as she´s been and I suggested something along the lines you just did..that she shouldn´t be surprised at the response if she was going to dress so gorgeously tantalizing..in THAT drab atmosphere no less. She said she knew all about that but she was damned if she was going to make herself over because men were so rude or ill-behaved...that she was going to be herself...even if that meant being gorgeous...and the rest of them would just have to improve their behavior. I had to admit she had a point...I mean weren´t talking about going for walks alone late at night because she just felt like it...screw the consequences...she was talking about her right as a free human...albeit a woman, to dress in whatever manner she felt most complimented her..after all...she was the first to see herself every morning in the mirror. Men can´t use a variation of the argument that, "Hey, she was wearing a dress...what did she EXPECT"? You might as well say you stole that Mercedes because some damn fool went and left it where you could be TEMPTED. The Law is supposed to cover that sort of thing and the more women fight the notion that they should dress down, or act down to the low level men occupy...the sooner we´ll leave this stuff behind...and the sooner men will feel comfortable coming out of the collective closet. : : xxx She makes a good point, HOWEVER, I'd rather a male colleague think I'm a bore than a sex object. : You are NOT a sex object, or not, by what you wear or do. Remember...just by BEING a woman it´s assumed you are "there and available". Why do you, or I, have to go on even caring what THAT kind of a male thinks? It´s his fucking problem...let HIM work it out. : : If I want to look sexy or pretty, I'll wait until I am in the company of friends or dates that I want to impress in that way. : You´re assuming that my lady wanted to impress men "that way". That was why she was burned up...you know damn well that you don´t have to DO a damn "sexy" thing to provoke THAT kind of a male. He´s so fucking up tight about being Gay he reacts to ANYTHING. She merely wanted the same freedom I have...to wear what I want when I want it with NEVER a though to what some other idiot is going to think.. No one said social change was an easy thing to accomplish...you have any idea what women went through just for the fucking VOTE? : I honestly don't care what a man thinks about me at work. & WHY should I pander to the latest sexpot trends, either? Especially those "Britney Spears" outfits, which often incorporated those ugly, weird ultra low-rise pants that give an otherwise fit & trim woman love-handles (because of the way those things pinch in below the navel).... So, I'd rather go with the "classic" but "boring" look (& actually, if you're a young & pretty girl, the "classic" look can be quite flattering). Save the trendy stuff for nightclubs & romantic dinners, if you WANT to wear them.... Personally, I just like clothing that has a more elegant look to it. I don't like to look like a modern sexpot or a hippie sexpot. & besides, why is it that women in the States are taught to think that they MUST dress sexy? Isn't that a gender stereotype/cultural construct, anyway? Why do women have to scream "sex" through their clothes? Why aren't women taught to dress to look, say, intelligent? Why should I care about the latest trends in clothing being pushed at me by a misogynist magazine editor or male dominated society? Perhaps dressing "plain" is my response to the male chauvanists who would like to see me degrade myself by dressing like a prostitute? : The only way to ultimately gain all those benefits you refer to is to take THE BATTLE TO HIM! Wear what you want...or nothing at all..and ask the asshole in a loud voice, "what is YOUR problem"? : You know how many times I´ve stopped myself from looking at a woman´s legs, or a MAN´s...because even though I may be looking at a lousey pair...for artistic reasons of course...I think it´s an invasion of privacy...so I DON´T. Let otyher´s practise the same restraint...they have to when it comes to snatching purses and stealing money that´s hanging out of shirt pockets. Let´s be "Politically correct" ALL THE WAY. : : : Someone opined once that men have been practising selective breeding of women for centuries... : : xxx & bred women who were of shorter/smaller stature than men & had certain features on their bodies (bigger or smaller breasts, depending on culture, etc.)... : : : : : Sure, you can chat with people at work, but make sure you don't become the object of malicious gossip (keep your private life out of the picture or as discreet as possible). Watch for people who have no tact - even someone lacking tact can pose a problem for you in the future (e.g. will he/she start telling others things about you you don't want to be shared with others?). In other words, try to control your work environment so that you only interact with people who will be good/fair to you. If someone tries to create problems for you, avoid that person so that that person doesn't create even bigger problems for you in the future.... : : : I don´t know...I understand the dilemna...but I could almost hear the advice of a few generations ago that warned women in similar ways not to "offend". Or advice for Blacks on how to not rouse Whitey. Even cops used to advice women who were about to be raped to, "Not put up a struggle because that might piss your attacker off...and things could get worse". There are legal and procedural options open to women that weren´t there when rapoed and abused women were the ones attacked in court for "provoking" attacks...and women were made to feel shame so they would be too ashamed to step forward and denounce the son of a bitch...who sure as hell would go out and rape her daughter or mother or sister next. : : xxx No, no, no. This is different. I'd sure as hell complain or press charges against anyone who tries to hurt or harass me.... However, I'm speaking about preventative measures. Why befriend someone at work (who may want to befriend you more than you him), who is just a trouble-maker? Most likely he's already causing trouble for other people, & why get stuck in that mess as well? : **I don´t know on what basis you "befirend" people...but the way you set him up..hardly seems like friend material. On the other hand...why do you have to pull your pun ches because nature made men idiots? Whom do you think has been civilizing men since the beginning? You gonna quit now, when your ancestors fought the really hard battles, just because it get´s a little hard for ums? : I'm just saying that a smart woman can sense things about other people, &, from the beginning, exercise some control over her interactions with idiots (so that she doesn't get stuck in their messes). That's all. BY ALL MEANS, like with my friend, if someone does you wrong & it's not something small you can get over, then complain or press charges (depending on the seriousness of the case). : *hear hear.

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